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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 16:23:47 GMT -6
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but I always thought it was illegal to farm the ditches. Yes you can put up an electric fence and graze livestock in ditches bordering your land but I dont believe it can be bailed. I know I have never witnessed a farmer in my area mowing and or bailing the ditches. each time we give an inch we slowly continue down the road to losing our trapping priveleges. Now its pre-staking. Next time complaints roll in it will be ROW trapping and finally trapping alltogether. This is like football. each time we are stopped for a loss we lose the battle of field position. when that happens we eventually will lose the game.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 8, 2009 16:34:17 GMT -6
It seems to me putting a two week limit prior to season would solve the problems you outlined Bruce without giving up the prestaking all together. At least if the law were there the farmers would know there was potential for them bieng there. I don't thing water sets and land sets in the ROW need to be different. There would be loop holes no matter how you wrote the laws, people would be putting kill poles in a trickle that runs down a ditchs center. IF THERE ARE any real complaints from trappers they would not be effected by eliminating pre-staking.
Dave I'd like to know if its legal to mow and bale the ROW's as well.
~ADC~
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 8, 2009 16:45:18 GMT -6
OK, No more beating around the bush here is what I think.
I think this WHOLE thing is because trappers have the MISCONCEPTION that when people are pre-staking trails that they are doing so to beat them to the trails. That is total BS. They are there to make it easier to get out more sets opening day. No matter if the trail is pre-staked anyone can set their sets in that trail anytime they want to.
It's purely a matter of ethics, nothing more.
If I find a trail pre-staked and unset during open season I'll set it up if I want to. I won't mess with the other guys stuff but I'll set up the trail and if he does too, fine by me. If I know a guy has a trail set up and he's not proved himself a slob trapper to me I'll pass up the trail and find a new one. If he's been cutting my snares for years, I just may set up the trail, often on the opposite side of the road, and get a few coons before they get to his sets. It's ALL ethics. And THAT IS NOTHING FOR THE DNR to handle, that should be handled among the trappers, IMO.
~ADC~
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Post by Kelly on Feb 8, 2009 17:04:42 GMT -6
In my conversation with Craig Sweet last night he said a few Directors had received complaints-only one beside himself he mentioned was from the NW so my guess is only two Directors have received complaints from Fellow Trappers. Then he went on to say a Director made a motion to eliminate pre-staking in the ROW and another Director second that motion so they were forced to vote on the issue. That really is the gist of it. Ron Andrews did not bring up the issue nor said that the Commission was going to act on it either(before motion was made). Finally, he did say that a Director from the Mason City area brought up the fact that some in his area leave their pre-staked snares in the ROW year around but he had not heard any complaints.
Finally Craig said he doesn't know what Ron Andrews and the DNR Commission are going to do with the ITA's vote/recommendation. Many are hoping it will deter them from going after elimination of trapping in ROW.
So like ADC said, we have a problem amongst ourselves that needs to be addressed by ourselves and not the DNR. I suggested to Craig about some sort of education on the matter like doing a seminar about trapping ethics, etc. And, if this 2 week before/1 week after is truly a law then it needs to be published in the regulations booklet. All the more reason to police it ourselves and if tags are involved then bring in enforcement. Guys, once it is lost it is very difficult to get back-almost never happens.
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 17:12:00 GMT -6
Why would ROW be next if pre-staking isnt removed? That would severely restrict the harvest which goes completely against the DNRs soul purpose of ensuring that our resources are managed properly. As I said before once Pre-staking goes its only a matter of time before they end ROW trapping as well. Its becoming clearer and clearer what the DNRs true agenda is here. It doesnt seem to be managing wildlife but rather ending our way of life.
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 17:12:56 GMT -6
We have a few farmers that mow a few ditches here and there, I do not know the legalities of it all, but as a tax payer I like seeing a farmer get something out of it.
Im not convinced that there are a lot of complaints with the mowers quite frankly, and I think it is just a small part of the problem.
I beleive the heart of the problem truly is overly sensitive trappers not understanding the concept of prestaking. Some offended by it happening, some thinking that they have claim to the trail, and some leaving the pole out year to year full time.
People leaving trapping gear out after season is an easy to solve thing. If it has thier tag on it the owner is easily found. If not tagged you just remove it. There is a big difference between messing with a guy's traps in November and removing an abandoned trap in June.
If a mower hits a piece of equipment, find the owner from the tag and he can get cited, and pay for the damages. Let that happen once and he will pick up his gear.
A fellow trapper told me yesterday that he knows a guy who leaves his kill poles out year round. If he was in my area I would tell him what is going on with this new proposed law. I'd ask him if he would please pick up his poles. If he refuses, I would go pick them up and remove them.
I see nothing unethical about that. If he doesn't care about the future of trapping, I have no respect for his abandoned gear in a road ditch during the off season.
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 17:19:39 GMT -6
Kelley I just read your post. Thanks.
So this IS a trapper issue, not a mower issue.
Lets take a stand guys locally. Take notice of your own back yards and act accordingly. If you have a hard head that thinks he owns a prestaked trail, confront him about it. If he has a favorite trail or roadway, BE there next year at 8AM and set it up big time, and make sure he knows why.
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Post by Kelly on Feb 8, 2009 17:22:47 GMT -6
"Why would ROW be next if pre-staking isnt removed?" I don't know Dave-sounds strange to me too. But am just forwarding here what was mentioned in that ITA Meeting per Craig Sweet.
Guess before we get too far along with this we need to find a definitive answer to if the 2 week before/1 week after is and has been a law since 2006 like some here suggest? Then we can more accurately proceed with steps to eliminate these complaints.
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 17:31:40 GMT -6
No it is not. The 2 week prior and 1 week ending was suggested but never made law.....Sorry Kelly, I wasnt aiming the question at you inparticular but rather anyone who might know.
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Post by Kelly on Feb 8, 2009 17:52:25 GMT -6
That re-confirms what Craig told me last night. I asked him why there wasn't/hasn't been any discussions/education/seminars/ or even mention of this problem in previous ITA Meetings/Minutes/Conventions/Publications/etc? Other than the time 3 years ago when the 2 week before/1 week after was voted on and recommended by ITA-then tabled by Commission-he said the BOD was sort of blindsided on this issue when the motion was made by a Director.
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Post by jdrogge on Feb 8, 2009 18:48:36 GMT -6
What is the date/place/time of the next ITA meeting  maybe all of us that are not too happy about this need to show up and be heard |
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 8, 2009 19:02:32 GMT -6
Mowing and baling ditches is legal if you own the land contiguous to the ditch. You cannot however sell the hay. It is only for on farm use. If your neighbor wants to let you mow and bale his ditch, you can, but he can't charge you to do it. I pay property taxes to the center of the road, so when I take the chance of mowing the ditch and hitting some kind of trash for some low grade hay, I'm not really getting something for free.
So, it sounds like a couple of our directors fit into the whiny b****er's club. Do they realize what a hammer this can bring down upon the trapping fraternity in Iowa? Now, I'm not going to pick on the directors who voted in favor of eliminating pre-staking, or even the person who seconded the motion, because I myself have seconded a motion I disagreed with because I was sure it would be defeated, just to prove a point.
NOW, for the individual who brought the motion to the chair....shame, shame, shame on you(who ever you are). Scott
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Post by gopherkiller on Feb 8, 2009 19:03:58 GMT -6
WOW!!! it seems there are several issues at hand here. First, I do not understand what is exactly meant by pre-staking. is it driving stakes so all a guy has to do is hook up a trap or is it doing everything short of actually setting the trap. Second, As far as i can tell there is no law that stops anyone from driving a piece of rebar into a ditch is there??? and then third, if activity outside of trapping season involves a trap couldn't this be considered trapping??? seems to be a big difference. I do not prestake anything except i do have stakes that cant be pulled so i hook back up the next year.
I trapped right up to the last day of season this year and had to question the CO on when exactly i had to stop. He said midnight was the end of season and all traps had to be disabled at this time and that i could go back and pick them up later if i wanted he even went so far to say i could leave them out all year if they were disabled. seem odd that season opens at 8am and ends at midnight... The only reason this came into play for me was because of the warm front coming through that night. Similiar i think to wanting to get traps out "right now" on opening day.
I sure hate for this to be an issue and feel that this needs to be handled internally and not put up for legislation. Yes there are some knot heads out there that make us all look bad but i know that there are more good than bad. Promote our heritage by doing it the right way and educate those less fortunate than ourselves.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 8, 2009 20:36:32 GMT -6
some where the ITA and others are trying to jump to many heralds at once. start with prestaking, then and only then if row come up talk about them
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Post by Kelly on Feb 8, 2009 20:42:26 GMT -6
Next BOD Meeting is Sunday April 19th, 10:00 at teh Nursery in Ames.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 8, 2009 20:43:50 GMT -6
how many of you think if we loss prestaking we are one step closer to the animal right nuts winning. I do! it's one less thing they have to fight against to eliminate trapping especially when they get trappers fighting trappers
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Post by furman on Feb 8, 2009 21:43:50 GMT -6
How would a anti vote on issue? …..They would vote to eliminate ROW prestaking because it’s one more step toward there goal
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 22:47:57 GMT -6
Very good point furman!!
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 9, 2009 6:09:03 GMT -6
Gopher,
As I under stand it, pre-staking means pre-positioning any equipment used for trapping, including closed snares and unset traps, drowners, pvc bait tubes, and just plain stakes and earth anchors. And as per my conversation with my CO last fall about a snare that was pre-staked but not open, it is legal. This snare was on the support with a whammy, ready to open. As mentioned before, nothing prevented me from opening the loop and getting the guy in trouble. That is one reason why I would be very selective where I put my stuff if I were to pre-stake. Scott
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 9, 2009 11:27:44 GMT -6
Ok, I've gotten a flood of e-mails and PM's on this and I'll tell you from all I've gathered the REAL and ONLY problem that led to this vote and this whole mess....
The problem is NOT the people who pre-stake thinking they own or called "dibs on" the trail or location. The real problem is other trappers thinking, that the pre-stakers think they own or called "dibs on" the trail or location.
Truth is all the pre-stakers I've spoken to do not care one bit if you get there ahead of them on opening day and go ahead and set up the trail/location.
That's it in a nut shell and nothing else is the real issue here as I see it.
Any other issues mentioned above could be solved with a two week limit.
~ADC~
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 9, 2009 14:03:34 GMT -6
So..... Let's all act like grown-ups and play nice together!  |
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 9, 2009 14:23:48 GMT -6
The thing is the DNR has already stated that the 2 week prior is not an option. The fact that they wont even consider it still ticks me off!!
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Post by skunked on Feb 9, 2009 14:27:20 GMT -6
Someone mentioned earlier that deer stands can be put out one week before season. If this is true and the DNR can regulate this act, why can't they regulate the two prestaking action?
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 9, 2009 15:00:48 GMT -6
skunked, It may be because deer hunting generates more revenue to them than trapping so they dont want to tick them off.
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 9, 2009 15:12:23 GMT -6
I wonder too if the fact that we get to sell the quarry we catch doesn't irritate the powers that be. The meat from a deer hunt does not come close to covering the expense that some hunters spend to get it. We trappers on the other hand can break even, and some even come out looking pretty good some years. Maybe they are jealous of us exploiting "their" wildlife. Scott
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 9, 2009 17:42:20 GMT -6
The gov. has been slowly working to curtail income derived from the land. Too hard for them to keep track of the money so that they can dip their fingers into our pockets.
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Post by k9 on Feb 9, 2009 19:50:17 GMT -6
ADC says that the prestakers he has heard from do not take it personally when someone sets in a trail that they have prestaked.
I think the key words are "That he has heard from"
The types of guys who are taking this personal are not the types who will be on a forum like this, nor do they probably belong to ITA, nor do they probably care about any issues other than thier coon set.
ROW coon are "free" coon, no one has thier name on them, and it's first come first served. We need to stand up to trappers who do not feel that way. Those are the trappers who will cost the rest of us ROW's.
I just got off the phone with a guy whom I respect, who wanted something posted on here. His suggestion is that kill poles are the problem. He told me of kill poles in his area left out year round, loaded up on coon trails in twos and fours, to the point of being ridiculous.
His suggestion is that if prestaking is dealt with by DNR, that the water sets should be allowed to be prestaked, and that DRY LAND prestaked sets should be FLUSH with the ground.
I would hope you guys will discuss this suggestion.
Further, I will add that no matter what law you put into place, a kill pole is a nameless object, that even if prestaked no game warden can write a ticket for. The game warden can only remove them unless he sees the guy setting them out.
WE CAN REMOVE THEM NOW.
Some of you think it is unethical to touch another guys gear, and in most cases I would agree.
I submit to you, that IT IS UNETHICAL TO STAND BACK AND WATCH THIS HAPPEN. If you know where a guy is leaving them out GO GET THEM.
Next year he will pick them up. He will not be willing to donate kill poles year after year. YOU WILL HAVE SOLVED THE PROBLEM.
The DNR will solve it for you, or you can take it on yourself.
From what I am hearing. this thing can still be avoided but we better be providing some solutions NOW.
First step, go pick up abandoned gear no matter who it belongs to. If it has no name on it, and it's in a ditch, IT BELONGS TO YOU. We can't be having DNR cleaning up after our fellow trappers and not get punished for it.
Next fall, if you see a guy loading up a trail with back to back multiple sets leaving no room for anyone else pull his prestaked gear and set on top of him. If you get a chance TELL HIM WHY.
He is counting on you to be unwilling to touch his gear. I personally would do my best to shut such a guy out.
If you are prestaking and leaving the other guy room, you are just doing an honest days work. If you are overwhelming a trail with multiple prestaked snares you are claiming the trail for yourself, and thats not right. I will not honor such a trapper. In fact I will do my best to break him of a bad habit.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 9, 2009 20:18:08 GMT -6
K9 most of what you say is good but this "Next fall, if you see a guy loading up a trail with back to back multiple sets leaving no room for anyone else pull his prestaked gear and set on top of him. If you get a chance TELL HIM WHY." THAT BS!!! If a guy has a trail set up heavy and legal move on. to push yourself in will only have more downs then ups
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Post by Brett H. on Feb 9, 2009 20:27:47 GMT -6
K9 most of what you say is good but this "Next fall, if you see a guy loading up a trail with back to back multiple sets leaving no room for anyone else pull his prestaked gear and set on top of him. If you get a chance TELL HIM WHY." THAT BS!!! If a guy has a trail set up heavy and legal move on. to push yourself in will only have more downs then ups Sorry Bruce but i would have to agree here!! If you cant Ethically fit into the trail with him then move on!! I dont think it is right to go moving his so you can fit in!! but with that said i do not know of too many cases where you cant squeeze in a set too!! |
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Post by k9 on Feb 9, 2009 20:45:09 GMT -6
Understand guys I am talking prestaked kill poles, not actual sets.
Just because I have a spot prestaked, if I am not there first I fully understand if someone else sets my spot. He was there first after 8am so it is his.
If you have a guy who is prestaking a trail leaving no room for anyone else, that is disrespectful as it gets. If I am there first, I am not going to accomodate him, I am going to show him the same respect he showed the rest of us. There is NO reason to load up a trail like that, other than trying to OWN the trail.
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maybe all of us that are not too happy about this need to show up and be heard
