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Post by Brett H. on Feb 5, 2009 19:39:03 GMT -6
That is Illegal! Thats would be a pretty grey area. Harrasment of a trappers equiptment really wouldnt apply until the actual season opens. Before that anything in the ditch could be considered trash and IMO could be removed without it being illegal. Tough call to say the least. I guess i would agree.. you made a good point. im not being a smart@ss but,...... if that was the case then....a really shady person could drive around whether its June or 2 days before season...and pick up traps as if they were a pop can? I would think that if prestaking is LEGAL then it would be ILLEGAL for someone to touch it? if not then i guess someone could drive around and just take prestaked traps?
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 5, 2009 19:43:38 GMT -6
Now I went and opened up a whole new can of worms...My bad.
I think the 2 week law stated clearly in the regs would take care of the issue.
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 5, 2009 19:46:41 GMT -6
Doesnt the trapper harrasment law only apply during the regular season? I dont know. Maybe someone can clear that up.
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Post by bearcreektaxi on Feb 5, 2009 20:10:00 GMT -6
I don't know if the trapper harrassment law would apply to pre-staked traps etc.. but IF IT IS NOT YOURS LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!!
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Post by Brett H. on Feb 5, 2009 20:11:46 GMT -6
Doesnt the trapper harrasment law only apply during the regular season? I dont know. Maybe someone can clear that up. . I would like to know to?
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Post by Brett H. on Feb 5, 2009 20:14:44 GMT -6
I don't know if the trapper harrassment law would apply to pre-staked traps etc.. but IF IT IS NOT YOURS LEAVE IT ALONE!!!!! . I agree 100% but I am talking about people that don't trap. That would mean they could legally pick up trap before season opens.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 5, 2009 20:26:01 GMT -6
I'm not sure on that issue Dave but if I found out a guy had taken my pre-staked traps/snares and I could prove it, we'd be in court letting the judge decide. That is if I kept my cool about it.
~ADC~
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Post by Brett H. on Feb 5, 2009 20:32:28 GMT -6
I'm not sure on that issue Dave but if I found out a guy had taken my pre-staked traps/snares and I could prove it, we'd be in court letting the judge decide. That is if I kept my cool about it. ~ADC~ . Agree 100% haha. I would prob be in court alright but it would be for beating someone with my bat!
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 5, 2009 21:06:40 GMT -6
I also agree 100% but if the harrasment law applies year round than technically any farmer that destroyed pre staked equiptment would be in violation.
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 6, 2009 7:32:54 GMT -6
If the farmer accidentally damages any equipment pre-staked or not I don't believe that could be considered harassment. Intentional damage is a whole other issue. Scott
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 6, 2009 11:33:08 GMT -6
I agree Scott. I posted that with a hint of sarcasm.
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Post by justwannano on Feb 6, 2009 11:55:30 GMT -6
At the present time Ron Andrews is answering individual emails Get busy and email him
Hint Tell him what counties you trap How you feel about the situation--I mentioned I have never had any complaints so I am losing trapping rights when there doesn't appear to be a problem. thank him for his time
have a good one just
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 6, 2009 16:59:44 GMT -6
I think Ron is starting to hear us. He mailed out to dnr everyone today asking if any one is getting complains about pre staking. The only problem is how he worded it, he's only going to hear from the people how complain and not from the likers
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 7, 2009 10:31:28 GMT -6
I'll throw this out there, I do agree with Dave P on the issue of it could be seen as litter and picked up prior to a legal season being open with no protection by the Harassment law, the law protects those during the legal activity of hunting or trapping. For those that trap ROW, technically do you need to call "one call" every time you drive a stake or dig a pocket set in the ROW and have them do a locate on the area? ? It is a state law that you will call for a locate when "digging or disturbing the ground on PRIV or PUBLIC property". Do you think you legally need to, what if you hit a fiber optic cable with your stake, are you liable to pay the repair bill and if a court would say that you are liable and I think they would, by all means that means every trapper that traps a ROW would have to contact for a locate just to cover their backside and if you think that the cables and lines are buried deep enough not to be affected, your only kidding yourself. No I don't pre-stake, I do trap them in a few places. I only bring this up because I have had alot of time to consider the vote that was taken last Sunday and have read over and over the responses here on both threads and played the arguments over and over in my mind when this was discussed at the meeting. It is an issue that needs to be addressed, by taking the vote they did, opened the eyes of alot of folks that get complacent in their thinking, the trapper, just like the hunter only gets involved when it affects them and it is usually after the fact. Alot will say they didn't know this was going to be brought up, evidently it has been on going for at least 3 years now (complacency at its finest). This issue need not drive those away that are against the issue or for the issue, if anything I would submit it should make the association stronger for it, by getting those involved in the process. Some will say the association should keep its members informed, yes it should, but the member should also stay informed by contacting their rep and see if anything is on the horizon that needs to be addressed. Communication is a two way street. I would assume that at the next ITA meeting everyone of you that is either for or against this decision will be at the next meeting in April and every meeting there after to become involved in the process and the association. I too, have alot on my plate and could think of a hundred other things to be doing that day, but I am serving on the board to do my part for trapping, perceived to be either right or wrong. Eric Rector Dist 16 Wright, Humboldt, Webster, Hamilton
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 7, 2009 11:39:56 GMT -6
I would personally never do that to a fellow trapper but I think thechnically it wouldnt be illegal prior to the opening of the regular season.
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Post by rob on Feb 7, 2009 11:43:17 GMT -6
I'll throw this out there, I do agree with Dave P on the issue of it could be seen as litter and picked up prior to a legal season being open with no protection by the Harassment law, the law protects those during the legal activity of hunting or trapping. For those that trap ROW, technically do you need to call "one call" every time you drive a stake or dig a pocket set in the ROW and have them do a locate on the area? ? It is a state law that you will call for a locate when "digging or disturbing the ground on PRIV or PUBLIC property". Do you think you legally need to, what if you hit a fiber optic cable with your stake, are you liable to pay the repair bill and if a court would say that you are liable and I think they would, by all means that means every trapper that traps a ROW would have to contact for a locate just to cover their backside and if you think that the cables and lines are buried deep enough not to be affected, your only kidding yourself. Eric,According to the Iowa One Call laws, you are only required to make a one call if your digging 18" or deeper in rural areas. If you would hit a fiber line at less than 18" it is the responsibilty of the telco.. They have guidelines they are expected to folloow. Now commonsense will get a guy everywhere. On gravelroads 99.9% of all telco lines are on the shoulder of the road, pavement it's on the shoulder or the backslope. If there is a ped on the backslope, don't drive a stake in front of it. There are instances where fiber or copper lines are routed around crossover pipes going under the road. But there again the telco's are required by the counties to have those lines deep. The last thing a county wants is to have to clean out a ditch in front of a crossover and have a shallow line. Your argument is the ROW's but technically any time and any place you dig or drive a stake beyond 18" (private or ROW) you are required by law to make a one call. So that makes that part of your argument a mute point.
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 7, 2009 12:05:08 GMT -6
If prestaking would be mentioned as legal in the rule book, any time or in the two weeks before the actual season which seems to be acceptable, then removal or harassment of said equipment would by default be illegal. Yes or No? Scott
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 7, 2009 12:19:50 GMT -6
here it is
POTENTIAL ADMINISTRATIVE RULE CHANGES. THESE ARE STILL SUBJECT TO CONSIDERABLE DEBATE, DISCUSSION, AND APPROPRIATE WORD SMITHING.
1). No person shall place or leave any stake, or non-indigenous set making material upon any public road or highway right-of-away except during the open season.
2). Any animal captured or trapped must be immediately released or reduced to possession by euthanization. Basically this would stop the live wild coyote/animal market. I would like to footnote this rule somehow encourage the release of bobcats, otters, and maybe foxes.
Trappers do have some other issues that they would like debated but I am not sure they merit rule making. Enforcement will have to determine that after a meeting with furharvesters occurs later this month.
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Post by k9 on Feb 7, 2009 12:37:09 GMT -6
I would change the term "stake" to something that allows for stakes which are flush with the ground, but excludes kill poles. It is the kill poles that people are hitting with mowers, etc. Other stakes they do not even know are there.
You need to control that, without stopping trappers from putting in something as simple as a Pogo, and leaving it there. I am pretty confident that if I put a pogo underwater in a ROW creek, that no mower will hit it.
I put concrete blocks in certain places, and when I pull the trap I hide them nearby above the flood level, and no where that a mower could hit it.
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 7, 2009 13:06:12 GMT -6
Rob...straight from the Iowa One call website and I quote... "The law specifies that ALL excavators must call the Iowa One Call notification center prior to ANY excavation.
and a definition for you from their website link to the state law page and I quote....
4."Excavation" means an operation in which a structure or earth, rock, or other material in or on the ground is moved, removed, or compressed, or otherwise displaced by means of any tools, equipment, or explosives and includes, but is not limited to, grading, trenching, tiling, digging, ditching, drilling, augering, tunneling, scraping, cable or pipe plowing, driving, and demolition of structures. "Excavation" does not include normal farming operations, residential, commercial, or similar gardening, the opening of a grave site in a cemetery, normal activities involved in land surveying pursuant to chapter 114, operations in a solid waste disposal site which has planned for underground facilities, the replacement of an existing traffic sign at its current location and at no more than its current depth, and normal road or highway maintenance which does not change the original grade of the roadway or the ditch.
The only place I could locate a depth mention was in farming and that was 15" or less.
Quote from the website Homeowners and nonprofessional excavators are required by law to notify Iowa One Call at least 48 hours prior to excavation (normal business hours excluding Saturdays, Sundays and legal holidays).
I think if anything I make the case against being able to stake anything in the ditch without first calling one call, which in essence would eliminate ROW trapping unless you want to call one call and have them locate all 300 or 400 of your sets.
This information came directly from the IOWA ONE CALL website, look it up for yourself, IOWAONECALL.COM
I just threw this out there for discussion sake
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 7, 2009 13:15:19 GMT -6
I'll throw this out there, I do agree with Dave P on the issue of it could be seen as litter and picked up prior to a legal season being open with no protection by the Harassment law, the law protects those during the legal activity of hunting or trapping. For those that trap ROW, technically do you need to call "one call" every time you drive a stake or dig a pocket set in the ROW and have them do a locate on the area? ? It is a state law that you will call for a locate when "digging or disturbing the ground on PRIV or PUBLIC property". Do you think you legally need to, what if you hit a fiber optic cable with your stake, are you liable to pay the repair bill and if a court would say that you are liable and I think they would, by all means that means every trapper that traps a ROW would have to contact for a locate just to cover their backside and if you think that the cables and lines are buried deep enough not to be affected, your only kidding yourself. Eric Rector Dist 16 Wright, Humboldt, Webster, Hamilton What a joke !! are you agreeing that is OK to rip up prestaked traps and move them to the road ?? Seriously No I am not agreeing with it as being OK, merely pointing out the fact that there is not much you or anyone else could do as a trapper to stop it "out of season" from happening that's legal. The harassment law I would argue only pertains to those that are trapping or hunting when the season is open.Sois pre-staking trapping and if it is, is season open, no it is not, so therefore how can you be protected from an activity when the season is not open and if you do call it trapping , then that season opens at whatever the time and date the state sets. Henceforth the need to have clear and concise rules and regulations for all to follow.
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Post by Kelly on Feb 7, 2009 13:33:00 GMT -6
Since when do we need, "clear and concise rules and regulations for all to follow" when the ethical and correct thing to do is leave someone elses property alone! Geez, just common sense should tell one that.
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Post by Kelly on Feb 7, 2009 14:08:18 GMT -6
Just spent the last hour reading the Directors Meeting Minutes posted on the ITA website dating back to Sept. 14th, 2007. Nowhere can I find any mention or even a hint this pre-staking issue was a problem, was discussed or even if anyone received complaints.
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 7, 2009 15:04:08 GMT -6
My point is, clearly what was stated, according to the law and their definition. I only bring this up as a talking point. I'm not arguing your point, only pointing it would seem to me that one can not do anything like digging holes, moving dirt, etc, in the road ditch w/o first calling one call. Do I call one call, no never have, do I think we should have to, no I don't. But I am pointing out this fact again, just as a talking point, after all this is a forum isn't it?
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 7, 2009 15:29:20 GMT -6
Eric if removing pre-staked traps were legal, (not saying I'm sure on that) wouldn't it be just a legal to remove anything on public ground out of season? Like deer stands, scent wicks, ect... when deer season hasn't opened yet? No that either is ethical but should a person remove a deer stand and set it on the side of the road, I'd think they would be oin some legal touble. If not criminal law then civil law perhaps... ~ADC~
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 7, 2009 15:31:30 GMT -6
I don't beleive "Pre-staking" includes having traps/snares setting on that site ANYTIME before the season opens!
The DNR made the OPENING time to START trapping at 8:00a.m., the morning the season OPENS!
NOT two weeks or what-ever before that date/time........ I don't care how you try to "twist" the law to fit your best welfare, it remains 8:00 a.m. OPENING day.
Having your stakes and/or traps set out before that time is NOT LEGAL--- PERIOD!
I have came across traps, snares especially, that were set the year/season perviously in trails along ROWs and they remained in place into the following season. The DNR should have been contacted, I agree on that 100%....
IF I come upon a set in the ROW, before OPENING DAY, that I know was there before the season OPENS, IT WILL GET PULLED and layed along the edge of the road. I've done it before and will do it again, no matter who it belongs to.....
OPENING DAY begins at 8:00 a.m. on OPENING DAY, NOT ?? days before...... and that's the way it should be.....
On PRIVATE property, you can do whatever you wish but along the PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY, or on any PUBLIC PROPERTY, the answer is NO..... 8:00a.m. is it - PERIOD How do you feel about that Eric?
~ADC~
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Post by k9 on Feb 7, 2009 17:59:08 GMT -6
Lets keep on task here Iowa One Call has nothing to do with trapping.
Actually we have two problems, one being prestaking, the other being people picking thier gear up at the end of it all.
Sometimes weather delays picking gear up, sometimes you just lose track of it, sometimes lazyness is the problem.
So folks, how does prestaking a trap in the water present any problems for mowers, other trappers, etc?
Most times other trappers don't even know my gear is there. I have had guys set in pockets I have dug. I intentionally push my prestaked trap down into the mud or toss it into deeper water so it won't be visible.
You see, the time waster on opening day is staking. Pull up, haul your gear down the bank, stakes too long, too short, etc etc. I personally do not prestake many snares, as I am afraid someone will open them up on me. I can slap in a kill pole so fast it is not even funny. I tried some T Stake setups like my pal to the west of me uses and they are scary fast to put on a trail. I have them pre set on the pole, stacked neatly in the truck so they wont tangle, and pull up, push it in, and move on.
With prestaking rare the other trapper knows I am there, unless he sees my tracks and pokes around.
So lets look at the problems, and offer solutions.
1. Other trappers thinking they own the trail when they prestake it.
2. Trappers being overly sensitive about prestaking and not working it out among themselves.
3. Mowers etc hitting gear ahead of season.
4. Mowers etc hitting gear left out after season.
Notice most of the problems are dry land oriented, and not water oriented. I have asked a Director whom I spoke to today to consider that, I will leave it up to him if he wants to offer an opinion.
So what are the solutions to the problems I have mentioned above?
Directors am I missing any of the problems before us? If so please list them here so we can discuss them.
We need to get ahead of this thing no matter what happens. If DNR is forced to take this away, the antis get to use this as a negative against us. If we can't control ourselves or our fellow trappers, then better to stop it ourselves and not suffer the bad publicity that is gained from DNR stopping us.
Some of you fellas cannot remember what it is like to truly battle the anti groups in the Capitol. We DO NOT WANT to have such battles now, given the current political majority. Most of them belong to the antis, not to us.
I used to count on the farmers to have our backs, but for the most part what we do for farmers can be replaced with a can of fly bait nowadays.
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 7, 2009 18:18:45 GMT -6
Eric if removing pre-staked traps were legal, (not saying I'm sure on that) wouldn't it be just a legal to remove anything on public ground out of season? Like deer stands, scent wicks, ect... when deer season hasn't opened yet? No that either is ethical but should a person remove a deer stand and set it on the side of the road, I'd think they would be oin some legal touble. If not criminal law then civil law perhaps... ~ADC~ ADC..good point, however, there is a rule in the regulations that states you can put up a tree stand 1 week prior to season opening and it must be removed after season closes, mind you this is on public ground not private. Decoys must must be picked up after a set time frame. My point is there is rules in place that cover this , there are none for before trapping season, which brings me back to one of the other responses I gaver earlier If pre-staking is not trapping, then no you would not be covered under the harassment clause in the rules and regs for hunting and trapping because it states that intentionally affecting the condition or altering the placement of personal property used for the purpose of taking furbearing animals, birds or other game with the intent of obstructing or harassing another person who is lawfully hunting or trapping. A person shall not interfere with the lawful hunting or trapping activities of another person where hunting or trapping is authorized by a custodian of public property or an owner or lessee of private property. This rule does not prohibit a landowner, tenant or an employee of the landowner or tenant from performing normal agricultural operations or a law enforcement officer from performing official duties. However if you do consider it to be trapping and think the harassment law covers you, then the season starts at 8:00 am on whatever the first sat. in November happens to fall on and in my opinion by pre-staking you would be in violation of the law as stated. So, is pre-staking trapping? My response to TEX A post is this, if that's how he feels than I really can't see any legal aspect to him not doing it, if pre-staking is not trapping. Would I or do I personally do it, no.
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 7, 2009 18:30:37 GMT -6
I guess I would qualify pre-staking as a "lawful trapping activity". It IS legal to do and it IS a trapping activity. Is it actually trapping? No. Scott
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Post by ringtail on Feb 7, 2009 18:56:36 GMT -6
I have been chacked by the DNR officer while presetting for my license and the tags on equipment. If presetting isn't trapping, then why would he care?
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