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Post by k9 on Feb 7, 2009 18:57:06 GMT -6
So who are the complainers? Who are the offenders who think they own the trail? Surely there have been problem areas or complaints, if so let's hear about them.
I have a stretch of road or two that I know other trappers will be on opening morning. I do not pre stake those. I have other stretches of road that other trappers leave alone, mainly because the ditches are straight up and down. I prestake the heck out of those cause I am used to having them to myself.
Small shallow foot wide creek? I do not prestake most of those. There is no room to hide my trap, and not much room for other trappers who beat me to them. Generally I can get in and out of them if I need more equipment or have the wrong stake.
Big wide creek? I prestake those. Chances are there is plenty of room for other trappers, and the water is deep enough that they wont even know I am there. Chances are the banks are steep there and I don't want to be jacking around opening morning getting this and that out of the truck. I want it there, ready to go.
Most pre stakers are the more serious coon trappers who roll hard. They are shooting for speed and conserving energy on opening weekend. Other pre stakers are guys who are just wanting to get out and scout a week or so ahead of season, and are enjoying a nice weekend.
Is this a prestaker problem, or a leaving the gear out after season problem?
Used to be if I saw a kill pole out after season I would leave it alone. Of course if it had a snare on it, I would be getting ahold of the trapper or DNR. From now on I will be pulling them. It's just a piece of steel after season is over, and if it's gonna cause me to lose prestaking I am going to get it out of there. Couple weeks before season, I will leave it alone. Any other time, I am gettig it out of there.
We need to police ourselves fellas.
Also we need to draw a hard line with those pre stakers who feel like they own the trail, and the whiners who can't confront such issues on thier own. For crying out loud, it's just a coon trail. We keep calling DNR or even the ITA Directors for that matter, and they will percieve that there is a bigger problem than there truly is.
Thats something that only you guys can do locally. Its not been a problem here as we tend to get along. So wherever the hot spots are need to "school" thier fellow trappers who are short sighted and pissy whiny.
Your future probably depends on it.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 7, 2009 19:09:23 GMT -6
I have been chacked by the DNR officer while presetting for my license and the tags on equipment. If presetting isn't trapping, then why would he care? Because of your intent to trap plus he could see your gear and didn't have to go looking for it
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 7, 2009 22:40:50 GMT -6
I only bring this up because I have had alot of time to consider the vote that was taken last Sunday and have read over and over the responses here on both threads and played the arguments over and over in my mind when this was discussed at the meeting. So you directors had no idea there was going to be a vote on this at the meeting? (That's what I've gathered through out this series of posts.) Perhaps had you or the others been notified that there would be a vote you'd of had proper time to concider the many, many, aspects of things this vote could mean. Perhaps the voting would of been the same but if they would of just told you at this meeting that there would be a vote next month, then everyone could of talked to thier trappers in their districts and been more prepared. There would be no changing TexA's vote but who's to say on all the others. I know it could of still went either way but what was the big hurry to vote if its been in the works 3 years what's another 30 days? ~ADC~
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 0:03:42 GMT -6
The more I read the more I believe the ITA should have told Ron that this issue would be tabled until futher information could be gathered from all those the law cahnge could effect. Than and only than should a final vote have been tallied but its easy for me to sit here and say this after the fact. Not having been able to attend the meeting myself.
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 8, 2009 8:34:43 GMT -6
So what is the answer/solution to the problem or problems that K9 put forth? Need not be long winded, whinning, or accusatory, just answers that can be debated and tossed around.
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Post by BigT on Feb 8, 2009 9:38:23 GMT -6
I have not pre staked and do not plan on ever doing it. Trapping starts the 1st Saturday in November!
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 10:05:46 GMT -6
1. Other trappers thinking they own the trail when they prestake it.
2. Trappers being overly sensitive about prestaking and not working it out among themselves.
3. Mowers etc hitting gear ahead of season.
4. Mowers etc hitting gear left out after season.
Here are the problems, let's discuss them.
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 10:10:56 GMT -6
The only way to turn this around is to offer solutions to the above problems. We can Judge the ITA Directors actions all day long, but it does not change the problems on the table. You will have plenty of time to tell your Director what you think.
The time to offer solutions to these problems is NOW. If you have a better idea than what is already being done put it on here and lets discuss.
I have a solution that would cure the problem, have already discussed it with Gene, but will not put it on here until some of you can even articulate what the problem is.
I will tell you what the problem is not. The problem is NOT ITA. So move past that.
What do you guys think the central problem is?
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 11:01:49 GMT -6
Ive stated my solution for 2 years Bruce.
Pre-staking limited to 2 weeks prior to the opening of the regular season.
All equiptment removed at the close of the season.
Clearly list in regs..........Very simple and to the point.
The enforcement issue is irrelevent. If pre-staking is removed there will still be some individuals who will continue to do so. Will the DNR not have to enforce the change on them? If the answer is yes the enforcmet of the 2 week change would be no different. There are a few bad apples in every outdoor pursuit and the DNR is there to enforce the regs. Thats their job. Thats what we pay our hard earned tax dollars for. Enforcement is enforcement. Doesnt matter if its two weeks, two months, or two years prior to the opener.
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Post by ringtail on Feb 8, 2009 11:08:40 GMT -6
IMO the only thing eliminating prestakeing will solve is the farmers/ county workers hitting prestaked gear. The whiners, the people thinking its THIER trail will continue, It will only be delayed until 8:00 am opening day If ROW trapping is eliminated these same trappers will be bitching that they cant get permission land and catch their share of fur. It all boils down to jealousy and not be willing to put in the effort it takes to catch their target furbearer in numbers.
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 8, 2009 11:09:43 GMT -6
The perception that pre-staking is "claiming" an area for exclusive use seems to be a big problem and the perception that by doing so the prestakers are breaking law. The equipment damage issue is a minor one at best, in my opinion.
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Post by Eric Rector on Feb 8, 2009 11:11:14 GMT -6
For those of us on, anyone want to go to chat and discuss in real time???
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 11:16:23 GMT -6
Yes Dave I agree with the two weeks out.
I think the guys doing it further out are wasting thier time, at least in trails. Creeks would be a different story.
There are some trails that have coon using them every year, no matter what. Those trails generally have a den site or whatever associated with them, and are leading to a water or consistent food source. A trapper that knows his area could pre stake those.
Other trails the coon are here today, gone tomorrow depending on the removal of food sources such as standing corn.
I prestake private ground two weeks before opening day. I prestake ROW creeks the weekend before, or a day or two before opening day. I do not want out on the private ground with the pheasant hunters that first weekend, so thats when I do my ROW.
The only problem I have with the picking up of gear on the last day is sometimes weather gets extreme. I can assure you, any gear in the creeks around here is inoperable and not going to catch anything. Ice out made our streams over bank full, with large ice flows and jams. No iced in traps survived that still set and bedded to catch anything.
Even if gear was not recovered because it could not be found, such gear will never end up in a mower or causing any harm, it is purely the trappers loss.
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 11:21:17 GMT -6
I think the prestaking issue, is mostly trappers complaining about trappers. Personal beefs that could easily be worked out.
I think the leaving equipment in the ROW's (after season) is more of a tangable, hands on issue, that has real consequences for the county or State guy who is mowing the ditches, etc.
A kill pole left behind is just a piece of steel in the ditch unless it has a trappers name on it. Personally I will be taking them from here on out. If it has his name on it, then you know who to take it up with. If it doesn't, it's yours.
Do not just toss them aside, as they can just as easily end up in a mower that way too. GET THEM OUT OF THERE.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 8, 2009 11:26:29 GMT -6
Dave could you change your line "Thats their job. Thats what we pay our hard earned tax dollars for." it's ower license dollars not taxes dollars
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 11:26:38 GMT -6
The regs could read all equiptment removed at end of season excluding traps set entirely under water.
Went to chat and showed I was the only one there. Maybe Im not doing something right to get in. Any help?
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 11:30:26 GMT -6
Your right iayogi, my mistake. I guess I figure since the gov. appoints those in charge of the DNR and our tax dollars pay his wage that it inevitablly falls back to our tax dollars.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 8, 2009 11:34:37 GMT -6
getting higher up the ladder yeah, but for fisheries, wildlife and co's it use that pay as sportmen
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 8, 2009 11:35:28 GMT -6
how do you chat on there?
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 11:35:59 GMT -6
Gotta head out the door if you are looking to chat you can always call me at 641 751 8400
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 11:48:05 GMT -6
Just re read ringtail and ou's posts.
Good points.
Whiners will always be whiners, no matter what time of the year it is. Guys who think they own a trail will think so wether that trail was prestaked or not.
ADC has a guy who cuts his snares regularly, thinks he owns the trail wether he has equipment on it or not.
OU if the damage is minimal to mowers etc then maybe it is not an issue. Only DNR or ITA knows for sure. Prehaps too that is a regional thing.
This whole leaving kill poles out year round thing is a rarity around here. Sounds like its the norm in other parts of Iowa. Start taking them and that guy will pull them next year.
The guy who just leaves his equipment in will never be back to get it. He has forgotten it or does not care. Get it out of there.
This notion that you can never touch another trappers equipment is not gonna fly. If someone has gear out in June, we better get it out of there or let DNR do so. Better WE find it than a mower or anti find it.
If his stuff is out in June you are no longer dealing with a fellow trapper, you are representing the rest of us in Iowa. In fact, you and I OWE IT to other trappers to deal with it. Thats how I feel, and I am going to act accordingly.
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 11:51:16 GMT -6
So far
Trappers whining = big problem or most consistent problem
Mowers hitting gear = a limited problem, not the norm.
One seems to me to be a pre staking problem, the other seems to be a leaving gear out in the field after season problem.
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 8, 2009 13:37:04 GMT -6
I think the prestaking issue, is mostly trappers complaining about trappers. Personal beefs that could easily be worked out. I'll say this again. I made a call to our CO this fall concerning prestaked snares in the ROW, not knowing that it was legal. This was not a personal beef with the guy who did the prestaking, it was my ignorance of the law. Had it been stated as legal in the rule book, I would not had to and never made the call. That being said, my CO (Al Baxter) stated that he did not believe it should be legal. Maybe THAT is the problem. Scott
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 14:18:08 GMT -6
You might be right Scott.
Is this just a DNR perception issue? Maybe one of those "just doesn't seem right" types of deals?
To properly assess this, we need to know how many complaints, what areas those complaints came from, what types of equipments those complaints involved, were they prestaking issues or equipment left out issues?
No one, not ITA, or DNR can assess the problem without some of those facts. Lets keep in mind, that our "coyote live market" issue involved very few coyotes, and very few trappers.
If DNR deals with a "problem", they are not likely to be able to do so and have everyone's needs in mind.
I can remember when we could trap coyotes year around, but a few guys started poaching red fox in October, and we lost the coyote open season. I would love to be able to trap coyotes in October, and I never poached a fox personally.
The actions or perceptions of a few can effect us all.
So who can tell us how many and what types of complaints have taken place?
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 8, 2009 14:24:40 GMT -6
about removing gear at the end of season. what do you think about all gear must be removed by the end of beaver season do to weather and ice not all gear can be pulled with in a week or so of close. at the end of beaver season we would have ice out
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 8, 2009 14:32:48 GMT -6
I dont see why that wouldnt be acceptable. Not many people out mowing ditches before the 1st of April.
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Post by Kelly on Feb 8, 2009 14:45:13 GMT -6
So if this two week limit is a reality/has been since 2006 then why do we have to give it up because so many knew nothing about it, like never mentioned in the published rules. Furthermore, it this is really the case then why isn't there enforcement done to take care of those that violate it? Something still doesn't sound right to me. Why do we have to give it up completely because of nothing publish and/or no enforcement from DNR?
Talked to Craig Sweet last night and he informed me that the 3 years ago everyone mentions was the 2 week before and 1 week after for ROW that was recommended by ITA with the DNR taking it to the Commission who eventually tabled it because of all the response from trappers against it. So now you are saying that has been law since 2006? You would think it would be in the rules booklet.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 8, 2009 15:35:38 GMT -6
To properly assess this, we need to know how many complaints, what areas those complaints came from, what types of equipments those complaints involved, were they prestaking issues or equipment left out issues? That is want I have been asking from the start and e-mailed Ron and asked him too, but no reply yet from ANYONE on what EXACTLY the complains are. I'm beginning to think there were NO real complains or they were so frivolous that the people who know them are afraid to let us in on what they are.
~ADC~
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 16:13:31 GMT -6
So assuming there are enough complaints to merit some attention, what are some more solutions you guys can think of, to the four problems I have outlined earlier?
I think we have concluded so far that water sets are in a different category from land sets, if anyone disagrees speak up please. This thread has over 1000 views so I know you all are out there, don't be shy.
If we are to agree that water sets are different, as far as potential for problems goes, then lets break down dry land ROW trapping. What are the problems there?
Griz, footholds, 220s and snares are the main tools used in dry land ROW trapping. What can we do to keep mowers from hitting them?
Who is to say with the price of hay that some fall if harvest is early and weather is good that the farmers won't be mowing the ditches in November?
A lot of farmers now mow every corn stalk they can and bale them, and some even bale bean stubble.
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Post by k9 on Feb 8, 2009 16:17:18 GMT -6
Kelly even if a law was put on the books, or is on the books, a kill pole with nothing attached will not be enforceable. All the DNR can do is remove it. We might as well do that, and save the Officer the time and gas. If there is still a name tag on it, then thats a different story.
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