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Post by daveplueger on Feb 4, 2009 10:51:06 GMT -6
There are several trappers who have pre-staked in this area for many years and I have yet to hear a farmer complain and I have lived here on the farm my whole life. I know every farmer for miles around and I have never witnessed one bailing hay in the ditches. I didnt think farmers were even allowed to bail the ditches in IA. If the pre-staking is removed the harvest will suffer. We have all seen how fast winter can shut us down. Sometimes were lucky to get a week or two of descent weather so those first few days are vital on some years. I doubt there are many farmers who want to see more coon. If something needs to happen I would still push for the 2 week pre-staking idea. The enforcement issue is a lame excuse at best. Thats there job. Within two weeks prior to the season there would no longer be any farmers or county workers mowing ditches and if ALL equiptment is removed at the close of the season there should no longer be any complaints other than some trappers that cant handle the competition.
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meandean
Hyper-Active Trap Talker
Posts: 152
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Post by meandean on Feb 4, 2009 11:00:35 GMT -6
It was asked what CACTAS was, it stood for Citizen Against Conibear Traps And Snares. You can thank Gene and a lot of other people that went to the State House for keeping both! THANK YOU GENE!!!!!! To me it would be better to give up prestaking than lose the ROW! But I don't want to lose anything if we can help it. Yes I use cage traps am over 65 and am fat, I do catch over a 100 coon a year!!!!!!!!!! But didn't set a trap this season.
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 4, 2009 19:19:20 GMT -6
I did some talking and there is no link between prestaking and loosing row the topic is just prestaking
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 4, 2009 20:09:40 GMT -6
I did some talking and there is no link between prestaking and loosing row the topic is just prestaking And the ITA is still ready to throw in the towel ?? Am I missing somthing here Ron A. is going to be bring up getting rid of prestaking in row with the heads in Des Moines. The ITA had a motion on the floor to vote on how they where going to back this up, you can see there votes at the start of this thread. the thing is some where people started to think that it's lose prestaking or lose row. row are not even the issue it's just prestaking again it's just prestaking that is the issue. Ron's point of view is making it more equal for everyone
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 4, 2009 20:23:18 GMT -6
How is it not equal for everyone now? everyone has the equal opportunity to pre-stake. Yes many have jobs, so prestake before or after work. The excuse of not having time is just that. an excuse. I know of many trappers that work full time and check traps before and after work so what stops them from pre-staking before or after work? If this does go through it should not effect water sets. Not many farmers or county workers mowing in the water. The sad thing about all of this is that we as Americans have been slowly giving up our rights and privledges a little at a time. This will not stop the complaining and next time it will be the ROW. Just the continuation of a vicious cycle that will inevitably lead to the end of our great past time. I have a great deal of respect for Ron but he should have been reminded that he works for us, we are his boss.
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grandpa
Hyper-Active Trap Talker
If you ain't the lead dog the scenery never changes
Posts: 177
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Post by grandpa on Feb 4, 2009 20:33:38 GMT -6
Gene Just got on here and catching up on my reading. You are correct in the number of pre stakes and timing, in their own words that is. There are three teams of twol and they are good at what they do. They cover the trails well, all the from the fence to the roadside with three, four or how ever many snares it takes to cover the trail. They have no regard to farmstead pets, a black eye for everyone. If someone makes the mistake of setting just one snare in a trail as soon as they get there it will be cut off on both sides. Legal most of the time. Not something you can legislate against just the kind of "trappers" they are.
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 4, 2009 20:47:21 GMT -6
getting there first and plastering the trail pre-staking is no different than getting there first and plastering the trail on opening day. Setting to close to a dwelling is irrelevant here. Both issues will exist regardless of whether or not pre-staking exists.
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 4, 2009 21:06:38 GMT -6
Gene, first I would like to sincerely thankyou for the decades of dedication you have poured into our cause. Regretfully I must disagree with you on this one. There are over 1/2 a doz. guys that pre-stake in my area alone and thats just the ones I know about so it happens in my little corner to. Competition is just the nature of running a line and has to be dealt with or one might as well go home and hang the traps back on the wall. Ending pre-staking will do nothing to remedy that fact. Without polling every trapper in the state there is NO way of knowing who is in the majority or the minority on this issue. This thread alone overwhelmingly shows more support for pre-staking than against.
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Post by paulb on Feb 4, 2009 21:14:53 GMT -6
. Ron's point of view is making it more equal for everyone I SHOULD OF ASKED THIS QUESTION FIRST,,,,,,,,,DID MR ANDREWS REALLY MAKE THE STATEMENT HE WANTED TO END PRE STAKING TO MAKE TRAPPING MORE FAIR FOR EVERYONE?? IF SO,,,,, can he really make this decision on his own?? and make it reality??,,what is to keep him from other equaliztion measures like every one just sets 25 traps,,or be limited to only trapping within the county they live,,,if he has this much power anything is possible,,
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 4, 2009 21:25:11 GMT -6
"Ron's point of view is making it more equal for everyone."
The last thing we should want is someone in government trying to make things equal or fair. If things were truly "fair" we would be catching and killing these animals with our bare hands, a rock or a stick. I still come back to my point that if pre-staking would be articulated as legal in the rule book there would be less complaints making their way to those in government who feel they need to control us. Scott
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Post by iowaminker on Feb 4, 2009 21:48:51 GMT -6
Gene, I along with probably everyone else on this board, don't question your service or appreciate everything you have done for the ITA. That said however, doesn't remedy the fact that this should be seen as a good move on the ITA's part. I ran 99% ROW's, mainly traps under bridges, with a few snares between stops. I didn't always like that some of my competition would set the furthest points away from the road (the fence line). So, apparently I should have complained and got others to complain to get this changed??? Since, they had the outermost points set. No, that's ridiculous. Just like this. This reminds me so much of something I've heard and witnessed since I've been old enough to trap. "Trappers are our own worst enemies". And if we really wanna delve into what the public says.....snares, and 220's. Again that's the public. Complaining about prestaking=other trappers. Granted I'll maybe conceive a few farmers.......but, otherwise that's just trappers. What's next? How many traps we can set, time limits on trapping (see MN regs), no 220's, no snares (see MO's regs). Someone mentioned other states regs.......that should have no bearing! I always viewed Iowa as a state that had a great organization and had that common sense factor many other states didn't. This really makes me wonder. I talked to a buddy of mine from MN this evening on this. All he could do was chuckle and ask why? Saying basically what I just did.
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Post by bearcreektaxi on Feb 4, 2009 21:57:04 GMT -6
WOW, this is incredible. Good job guys we've given up a right that we will never get back. In the same spite that all who voted to end prestaking used I believe prestaking should include:
Any preseason work at all in the ROW including predigging pockets, setting out concrete blocks, staking drowners, chipping out trap beds, pre-baiting, etc...
Remember everything has to be fair, right? Maybe everyone with a trapping license should meet at the end of the season to divide up fur checks evenly, that way everything is fair. We'll just replicate the wellfare system within the trapping community since it works so well everywhere else.
I respect those individuals that work to protect our right to trap and I respectfully disagree with those that choose to give those rights up
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Post by bluedot64 on Feb 5, 2009 7:53:48 GMT -6
Gee, I should not have pull my traps at the end of the season for the last 50 years just left them as pre-staked. That way I could have two or three counties covered by now and if anyone messed with them I could claim harassment and if I did not get around to set them during the season I would still have claim on the area even if some kid wanted to try his hand at trapping. Every ROW pre-stake argument here has “ME” based in it somewhere. This surely does nothing to preserve our trapping heritage. That said, ROW should be treated as Game Management Areas so we will maintain public hunting and trapping areas.
Also, I am old, fat and I do have cages but no DPs, Egg traps, Duffers, Coon Cuffs or Little Grizz but I will next year. I have not set over a hundred traps for over fifteen years and likely never do that again but then “ the wolf is no longer at the door”.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 5, 2009 9:00:55 GMT -6
Gee, I should not have pull my traps at the end of the season for the last 50 years just left them as pre-staked. That way I could have two or three counties covered by now and if anyone messed with them I could claim harassment and if I did not get around to set them during the season I would still have claim on the area even if some kid wanted to try his hand at trapping. It would be legal if you chose to do just that, however part of your senerio is wrong... "I would still have claim on the area" No, you wouldn't. It would be perfectly legal for them to set their traps right in the trails you are using. In fact banning the pre-staking will NOT stop that. These hard working guys that out there pre-staking are NOT there to "claim" locations. They are there to make it easier for them to get out all their sets on opening day because they know in Iowa time is critical and mother nature can shut you down at any point. These people are the same ones that be setting up the same trails as you on opening dayeven if they can't pre-stake. You think you get mad when they beat you there by pre-staking, think how you'll feel when they set the trails after you set them and catch the coons before they get to your sets. You'd be better off to know if they are going to be there ahead of time and work your sets around them. If they work their sets in around you you'll really be mad. When you get mad this time though, don't call the DNR and ITA directors to complain unless you want to want to give up ROW trapping for everyone. BTW I don't pre-stake it's not for me. (only "me" I used in the whole post) Like I said though earlier my 3 year old may have wanted to someday. ~ADC~
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Post by dfox on Feb 5, 2009 9:18:15 GMT -6
From what I undertand of the situation is that Ron Andrews brought up the subject to recommend doing away with pre-staking at the meeting. It is unclear if the ITA board knew he was going to or not. I also heard that Ron has wanted to do away with ROW pre-staking ever since they did away with it on game management areas whenever that was. I am guessing that he is getting tired of hearing the complaints from other trappers and whomever else about pre-stakers and this is his way of dealing with the problem instead of fielding complaints, which is his job and what we pay him to do and the rest of the DNR to do, not shelve the problem or take the easy way out and do away with pre-staking altogether. Since the motion was brought up, the board voted on it in favor of doing away with pre-staking, granted it was pretty much a split vote. Now to me, the ITA board voted to give one of our trapping rights away when nothing else was in jeopardy of being taken away at this time. It makes no sense that members would vote this way unless they too were tired of fielding complaints from trappers about other trappers (I don't know if that was their reasoning or not.) If it was, that's taking the easy way out of the problem by doing away with pre-staking altogether. I highly respect Gene and the other board members for the things they do and are trying to do, but I have to disagree with the boards decision to back the DNRs proposal to get rid of pre-staking.
Why not make a limit on when traps have to be picked up by after the close of season in the ROW or public areas like deer stands and say that no pre-staking before a certain date like September 1 or something like that? That would make more sense than doing away with another trapping right entirely. Eventually things will get whittled away until nothing is left to give.
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Post by bluedot64 on Feb 5, 2009 9:32:55 GMT -6
When you get mad this time though, don't call the DNR and ITA directors to complain Well ADC never have nor do I intend to - I just pick up and move on.
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Post by centraliowa (ryan) on Feb 5, 2009 9:56:07 GMT -6
I have talked with Craig, ITA and Dave, District Rep and they informed me that the issue was brought up when they went around to the directors to get the directors reports. One of the directors from NW Iowa brought up this subject and after some discuession a vote was taken. I have sent Ron a email letting him know why I don't think anything should be done about the pre staking issue. Leave it like it is and let the cry babies, cry. ron.andrews@dnr.iowa.gov
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 5, 2009 10:32:07 GMT -6
When you get mad this time though, don't call the DNR and ITA directors to complain Well ADC never have nor do I intend to - I just pick up and move on. Sorry I didn't mean "you" in particular but "you" in a more general sense to the folks who have made the complaints. These trappers vs. trappers complaints will not stop until either A. Trappers learn to get along with other law abiding trappers and stop the complaining or B. The complaints finally push the to the folks receiving them over the edge and they ban public trapping all together so everyone will have to seek permission for everyplace they trap. Ending pre-staking will do nothing to help either of those two options IMO. ~ADC~
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 5, 2009 10:49:42 GMT -6
I have a couple questions for those in favor of ending pre-staking in the ROW.
How will this fix the problem?
What will be your course of action next season when the complaints still continue to roll in?
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Post by centraliowa (ryan) on Feb 5, 2009 11:41:00 GMT -6
Here is the response from Ron A, DNR:
"Ryan: thanks for the input. We will certainly consider it in our future discussions on the subject. Just one thought. I doubt that young trappers which we certainly need more of for the future of the sport are able to do all the pre-staking that you mention much prior to opening day because of school activities. Right now it seems to split out about 50:50 as far as trappers are concerned. Half of them don’t want limitations and half of them do. Any way I appreciate your input and all input will be discussed. Take care!"
His email addy is above. Is it really 50:50 among trappers? Don't seem like it. Better get the emails rolling.
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Post by 4fur on Feb 5, 2009 12:00:43 GMT -6
Here is the response from Ron A, DNR: "Ryan: thanks for the input. We will certainly consider it in our future discussions on the subject. Just one thought. I doubt that young trappers which we certainly need more of for the future of the sport are able to do all the pre-staking that you mention much prior to opening day because of school activities. Right now it seems to split out about 50:50 as far as trappers are concerned. Half of them don’t want limitations and half of them do. Any way I appreciate your input and all input will be discussed. Take care!" His email addy is above. Is it really 50:50 among trappers? Don't seem like it. Better get the emails rolling. Thanks centraliowa! Most of us are trappers and have little or no lobbying experience. I suppose this is a situation where it's best to "say anything rather than nothing." But would you or anyone care to share what an email to Ron Andrews should say? Thanks for posting his address!
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Post by dfox on Feb 5, 2009 12:15:50 GMT -6
Here is what I just sent Ron. I am waiting for a response.
"Hi Ron, I am writing you to ask why the DNR is wanting to get rid of pre-staking in the ROW? I heard this issue came up this past week and it concerns me a great deal having trapping priveledges taken away. Has there been complaints about the issue and if so, what are these complaints? I pre-stake and I like the advantage it gives me on opening day to speed up getting my line set and it allows me to put out more traps than I otherwise could, due to time constraints in regards to my job and family time. I would hate to see trappers have to bite the bullet once again on another trapping issue. I look forward to your response.
Sincerely,
David Fox"
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 5, 2009 12:39:18 GMT -6
My e-mail to Ron... "Ron, my name is Jayme Johannes I go by the name ~ADC~ on the site I made www.iowatrapperstalk.com . There are currently 476 members, most of which are Iowa trappers or non-resident Iowa trappers. I'm not sure if you're a member there yet or not but I would like to extend a personal invitation to you to come register with us and give us your input on the current issue listed in the Iowa trappers talk forum under the title "State ITA board meeting today" in which there is a rather lengthy dissucussion on the issue of pre-staking. My personal view of the situation is there is nothing to be gained from totally eliminating the pre-staking vs. limiting it to two weeks prior to season. Either way DNR enforcement would be the same; if you pre-stake too early, it's a ticket or warning. This would cut way down on mower/trap accidents. From what I understand there was a concern with younger trappers not having time to pre-stake but with a two week limit they would still have two full weekends and nights after school activities to pre-stake should they desire to. Most all trappers I know have expressed that a two week limit would be a very fair compromise. For the record, I do not pre-stake ROW's personally at this time but I may want to some time in the future, or my 3 year old son may want to as well later in his life and I'd hate to take that opportunity away from him. You and I both know Iowa weather can put the hurt on trapping very early in season and not allowing pre-staking can really hurt the number of animals caught by folks. I don't think any of the farmers and very few others want fewer raccoons caught. There are many other issues we would appreciate your input on as well as this one but this one is a pressing issue, and we'd love to have your input. We also have an interactive chat room where we could all set up a meeting if you'd like and see where this thing is going. I hope to see you there soon. Jayme ~ADC~ Johannes"
I hope he joins us. ~ADC~
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Post by Brett H. on Feb 5, 2009 14:41:44 GMT -6
:)very good emails fellas!
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 5, 2009 15:51:21 GMT -6
The reply I got from Ron...
I told him the door is always open here.
~ADC~
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Post by k9 on Feb 5, 2009 20:27:15 GMT -6
Sheesh I get busy chasing meth cookers and all hell breaks loose.
I am conflicted here. I think we should give NOTHING away for free, especially in this case where we proactively gave it away.
However, I trust Gene and some of the other ITA Directors very much. I find it hard to believe that some of these fellas who have battle scars from past anti wars, would roll over and pee like a submissive dog unless they saw something coming down the pike that was inevitable.
I know a few (very few) of our Directors have personal issues with equipment such as snares for example. Our Directors need to represent EVERY piece of equipment and method that is legal and ethical in Iowa, not just thier favorite one. I do not feel represented by such directors that discriminate against one method but I count on the majority to balance them out. This was a mighty close vote, and I think Dave's vote should count.
On one hand, if we were going to have it taken away no matter what, it is better to steal away the bad publicity that can be used against us, by having DNR just take it. Imagine the news stories about how DNR had to solve this "problem" of rogue trappers, which is how we would be depicted. No one in the general public will take the time to understand or care about the pre staking issue.
So we steal the issue from them, and resolve the "problem" ourselves, no publicity, and if there is, trappers handled it, not the DNR.
On the other hand, if we were unsure we were going to lose it, or it being an issue, then I feel unrepresented and disappointed in the fact that ITA would just nuke a method because they can.
I can see both sides, I think Dave should have a vote, I do not need prestaking as I already have my game plan figured out and will roll just as fast opening day, but I dam well support the rest of you being able to prestake your gear.
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Post by k9 on Feb 5, 2009 20:29:18 GMT -6
By the way, Funke is my rep, how did he vote???
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Post by k9 on Feb 5, 2009 21:16:17 GMT -6
You are right Adam our privelages or rights always erode away a little at a time, rarely all at once.
Most would blame ROW trapping for problems, when in fact its a handful of trappers who are the problems.
All it takes is rumors of high dollar coon and look out, they come out of the woodwork and we get a new law.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 5, 2009 21:25:52 GMT -6
All it takes is rumors of high dollar coon and look out, they come out of the woodwork and we get a new law. I'm betting with the current piss poor coon prices that next season there will be way fewer complaints if the prices stay down. Though I'm not sure in this case, unlike in the fur booms of the past, it's the slob trappers who are doing things illegally that have caused the complaints, but rather the jealous/greedy few who think them are "their" coons and "their" trails. AKA. P.A. types. ~ADC~
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Post by x-demoman on Feb 5, 2009 21:53:13 GMT -6
I do not feel offended by the contents of this discussion. After 5 pages of comments no one has seen what is at stake here. This is not a new issue, we have just put if off. Now it is infront of us and a stand has been taken. You do not need to agree but you need to look and see what is really a stake here.
For those who want to know how the vote went, all I can say is contact your director. It was a roll call vote and I did not keep track and did not know the outcome until it was announced.
Sorry K9. Dave had failed to fulfill his obligations as a Director at Large as outlined in the bylaws. Don't want to side track you K9 but the live market stuff is also on the table.
Ron A did not ask for this. He is just the messenger from the Down Town office. This discussion started at least 3 years ago when they asked for our input. Dave was involved at that time. That is where the 2 week prior to season came from and was our recommendation. They responded that 2 weeks was not an option. You can not vote for something that is not on the ballot.
Will this become law? I don't know, if not there is still a very large object looming on the horizon.
Do I have a problem on my line with prestakeing? No!!, therefore those who think I have a personal adjenda or am afraid of competition will need to find a better arguement.
Gene
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