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Post by daveplueger on Feb 24, 2009 7:23:02 GMT -6
Chris, NOTHING was more intimidating than trying to learn how to trap during the fur boom of the late seventies yet just about every farm boy trapped. I dont buy the " pre-staking discourages new trappers" You of all people should realize that every little thing we lose only gets us that much closer to losing it ALL!
Jeff, The ITA is not in any financial difficulty. A survey could easily be sent out to all those who purchased a fur harvesters license. The questionare could also relay the dates and times for public hearings regarding this subjct. At the same time the ITA can use it to try and gain some new members. I know that has been done in the past but no harm in doing it again.
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Post by chrisf on Feb 24, 2009 7:43:33 GMT -6
NOTHING was more intimidating than trying to learn how to trap during the fur boom
I absolutely agree with this statement. I don't see where it ties into this discussion, but I do agree with it.
You of all people should realize that every little thing we lose only gets us that much closer to losing it ALL!
I also agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Perhaps you did not understand what I stated in my post. Doing away with prestaking in the average trapper's opinion is not taking something away or losing something, but giving something back to the average Joe trapper. It is buying security in our trapping future by aiding in recruitment and retention of the average trapper who is essential for trapping to survive. In my occupation, I get to see first hand the impact pre-staking has on the majority of trappers, and it is certainly there, and it is certainly far from positive.
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Post by dfox on Feb 24, 2009 7:59:15 GMT -6
I have a question and it might be off topic a little bit. Isn't putting out deer stands on public land prior to season the same thing as pre-staking? I have not heard of any talk of doing away with that to level the playing field for new deer hunters.
And thanks for your post Chris, it is good to hear from a COs perspective on issues which you do not get very often.
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Post by k9 on Feb 24, 2009 8:15:38 GMT -6
I agree Dfox, it is "claiming" a tree. Even though someone can, no one else will put a tree stand there once one is put up. So if you have a tree stand over the best deer trail intersection on state land, you have "claimed" that tree.
Dfox if we speak to ITA or DNR on this issue, this is the comparison we should make. Most deer hunters cannot relate to trapping issues, but can relate to that issue.
Fact is, for a variety of reasons it is in the deer hunters best interests to put thier tree stands up in advance/ Those reasons have little to do with "claiming" a tree.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 24, 2009 8:43:27 GMT -6
First off thanks to Chris for the input, its what I've been looking for since this whole debate started on here. (a reason for the vote in the first place)
The way I see it I agree with you that the average Joe trapper when presented with this issue and does not look deeply into it. All they are seeing is "hey, this way no one will beat me to the locations I want" they think "yes, that's good, let's ban the ROW prestaking." What they don't think and are not all told is that IF no one can prestake the ROWs then the former prestakers will be working harder than ever to get it all done opening day/weekend that they can. This WILL result in them still beating you to some trails, it WILL also lead to them setting the same locations you already have set, AND WHEN THEY DO, you better not mess with their stuff or you'll be in-line for a fine. So you'll either A. learn to trap the same locations as them or B. pull your stuff and moving on.
In my opinion there will be no difference other than it will cost the average Joe more time to pull and move on than to have known the prestakers were there and move on.
If these average Joe trappers think that just because they moved on when the prestakers beat them to the trails, that the prestakers will do the same, they are going to be sadly mistaken, madder than ever, and waging even more complaints. Complaints that will lead to the end of public ROW trapping.
~ADC~
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Post by jdrogge on Feb 24, 2009 8:45:02 GMT -6
The biggest difference in the prestake vs treestand issue is the the groups that do it, otherwise this issue is the same. Trappers make up a small percentage of Iowa sportsman, deer hunters on the other hand are a large group, who pump more dollars into the DNRs pockets. If they said no treestands on public ground before opening day of deer season, there would be a heck of a uproar about it and the DNR would potentially lose more $$$$$, trappers are a small group on the other hand and can be bullied without the chance for as much financial loss. I'm sure everyone else noticed that out fees are proposed to go up 70% to everyone elses 30%
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Post by iayogi17 on Feb 24, 2009 9:01:27 GMT -6
I'm with ADC. some guys that prestake are still going to be setting with other having traps out and the other are not going to like it. to a long liner/ #s guy they are going to be trapping hard no matter what.
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Post by dfox on Feb 24, 2009 9:50:03 GMT -6
I agree Dfox, it is "claiming" a tree. Even though someone can, no one else will put a tree stand there once one is put up. So if you have a tree stand over the best deer trail intersection on state land, you have "claimed" that tree. Dfox if we speak to ITA or DNR on this issue, this is the comparison we should make. Most deer hunters cannot relate to trapping issues, but can relate to that issue. Fact is, for a variety of reasons it is in the deer hunters best interests to put thier tree stands up in advance/ Those reasons have little to do with "claiming" a tree. I think it is the best comparison we can make.
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Post by dfox on Feb 24, 2009 9:52:29 GMT -6
The biggest difference in the prestake vs treestand issue is the the groups that do it, otherwise this issue is the same. Trappers make up a small percentage of Iowa sportsman, deer hunters on the other hand are a large group, who pump more dollars into the DNRs pockets. If they said no treestands on public ground before opening day of deer season, there would be a heck of a uproar about it and the DNR would potentially lose more $$$$$, trappers are a small group on the other hand and can be bullied without the chance for as much financial loss. I'm sure everyone else noticed that out fees are proposed to go up 70% to everyone elses 30% The deer hunters would raise hell and the DNR would bow down to them. They know not to screw with the deer hunters tree stands on public ground as it would cost the state some $$$$
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Post by Huntaholic on Feb 24, 2009 9:55:10 GMT -6
The biggest difference in the prestake vs treestand issue is the the groups that do it, otherwise this issue is the same. Trappers make up a small percentage of Iowa sportsman, deer hunters on the other hand are a large group, who pump more dollars into the DNRs pockets. If they said no treestands on public ground before opening day of deer season, there would be a heck of a uproar about it and the DNR would potentially lose more $$$$$, trappers are a small group on the other hand and can be bullied without the chance for as much financial loss. I'm sure everyone else noticed that out fees are proposed to go up 70% to everyone elses 30% The deer hunters would raise hell and the DNR would bow down to them. They know not to screw with the deer hunters tree stands on public ground as it would cost the state some $$$$ Couldn't have put it better myself.
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Post by dfox on Feb 24, 2009 9:58:32 GMT -6
The deer hunters get a week prior to put out stands/blinds, why not trappers? The deer hunters have to have their stands/blinds removed a week after deer season, why not trappers? I would like to know why the DNR is so dead set against allowing trappers to do the same thing?
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Post by putput on Feb 24, 2009 10:03:24 GMT -6
I agree with Chris. As a hobby trapper pre-staking is unfair and it needs to go. From what I've read all indications of you guys keeping pre-staking are strickly greed motivated and you're taking little consideration into promoting trapping!
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Post by Kelly on Feb 24, 2009 10:06:02 GMT -6
Guys, we are all losing focus here. The DEED has already been done by the ITA BOD. Nothing we can do will change that-at least if they really wanted to they could without us. We need to focus our attention on Ron Andrews, DNR and the Commission to stop it from going any further. This proposed ban of pre-staking has been in their hands sinced the FEb 1st. BOD vote. We have wasted 3+ weeks of time, now trying to find out what, when where and who. Have emailed Ron Andrews on this subject when it first came to light. So far to date, have not heard one peep out of him. Has anyone?
As I've said before, I don't pre-stake but very well may at sometime in the future. I sure as heck am not going to stop someone from doing it. On my trapline have come across other peoples sets, both pre-staked and actually set. They do not intimidate me-cause me to go elsewhere-none of this. I have every right to trap that ROW as everyone else has and there are plenty of other places closeby to make ones set. Common sense and respect for your fellow man will go a long ways to solving this problem. Then there needs to be education done to prevent any more complaints. Finally, really believe there needs to be a time limit imposed with published regulations so everyone knows the rules. Right now there is nothing.
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Post by k9 on Feb 24, 2009 10:08:57 GMT -6
We always have to remember that we are in a minority for the most part. Very few people care about trapping like we do. Thats why we have to stick together. The comparison to deer hunting to trapping is an obvious one.
As I said in an earlier thread, we can't even count on farmers to have our backs on some of these issues. They can replace a good coon trapper with a can of flybait nowadays.
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Post by Scott W. on Feb 24, 2009 10:33:03 GMT -6
ChrisF, Thanks for articulating your point of veiw. Have you ever had somebody spontaneously come up to you and tell you how much good they think pre-staking is doing for the management of the resource? How many have complained against it? Hope you get my point. As for recruitment and retention of new trappers (not sportsmen, trappers) I think economics has way more impact than intimidation or discouragement from too much competition. Scott
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Post by justwannano on Feb 24, 2009 10:46:44 GMT -6
Guys, we are all losing focus here. The DEED has already been done by the ITA BOD. Nothing we can do will change that-at least if they really wanted to they could without us. We need to focus our attention on Ron Andrews, DNR and the Commission to stop it from going any further. This proposed ban of pre-staking has been in their hands sinced the FEb 1st. BOD vote. We have wasted 3+ weeks of time, now trying to find out what, when where and who. Have emailed Ron Andrews on this subject when it first came to light. So far to date, have not heard one peep out of him. Has anyone? As I've said before, I don't pre-stake but very well may at sometime in the future. I sure as heck am not going to stop someone from doing it. On my trapline have come across other peoples sets, both pre-staked and actually set. They do not intimidate me-cause me to go elsewhere-none of this. I have every right to trap that ROW as everyone else has and there are plenty of other places closeby to make ones set. Common sense and respect for your fellow man will go a long ways to solving this problem. Then there needs to be education done to prevent any more complaints. Finally, really believe there needs to be a time limit imposed with published regulations so everyone knows the rules. Right now there is nothing. Yes Kelly he answered all 3 of my emails. Really didn't say much though. Wanted to know where I trapped and thanked me for the invitation to come here to ITT but declined. thats about it.
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Post by justwannano on Feb 24, 2009 10:51:07 GMT -6
No sir. It would slow me down opening day. The only way I could see it as an advantage on getting more sets out opening day is if you have to actually pound every stake or used a large amount of bulky cage traps. cf I'm supposed to just be lurking but lol Chris what do you mean when you say ..."The only way I could see it as an advantage on getting more sets out opening day is if you have to actually pound every stake ... ? You don't pound every stake on opening day? have a good one just
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Post by jdrogge on Feb 24, 2009 10:55:52 GMT -6
I took time out of my day to email Ron Andrews a few weeks ago and even asked him to take the time to respond and I have heard nothing, if nothing else thats just kinda rude.
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Post by chelydra on Feb 24, 2009 10:57:28 GMT -6
I think you all are comparing apples to oranges on the deer stand vs. pre-staking issue. If I go out on a public hunting area and decide to climb in to somebody else's tree stand and use it, the DNR regulations clearly state that it's use is on a first-come first served basis, regardless of who put it up. I can hunt out of that stand as if it was public property. A deer hunter who places a stand a week before the season on public ground does so knowing that anyone who wants to use his stand has a right to. But a deer stand pre-hung on private property remains private property and the owner has total control over who may use it.
However, if you pre-stake a snare in the ditch you do so with the expectation that the snare remains your property and the animals caught in that snare are yours. It would be illegal for me to set and use that snare and it would be illegal for me to remove an animal from that snare. If you want to go down that road, then maybe they will decide that animals caught in roadside snares can be taken by whoever happens upon them first. I don't think any of us would like to see that.
I am glad to see the post by chrisf. I echo those sentiments. I have been following the posts for awhile now. I believe that there is a less vocal majority out there that really does not support pre-staking in the ROW.
We also should thank the BOD for all that they do. It is a very thankless job. Even though some do not agree with their votes on this particualr issue, I believe that they do have the best interest of trapping and trappers at heart. We do still live in a democracy and everyone is free to voice their opinions on issues. We also live with decisions that are made by those we elect to office. If you don't like how your elected officials vote, make your opinion known and then step up and run!
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Post by jdrogge on Feb 24, 2009 11:12:12 GMT -6
HHHHMMMMM.......lots of new posters all of a sudden, someone must be "rallying the troops" on some other sites.....hopefully you will all stick around to discuss some more positive trapping related subjects. ADC if nothing else this discussion has been good for the membership....if they stay. ;D
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Post by dfox on Feb 24, 2009 11:30:09 GMT -6
I think you all are comparing apples to oranges on the deer stand vs. pre-staking issue. If I go out on a public hunting area and decide to climb in to somebody else's tree stand and use it, the DNR regulations clearly state that it's use is on a first-come first served basis, regardless of who put it up. I can hunt out of that stand as if it was public property. A deer hunter who places a stand a week before the season on public ground does so knowing that anyone who wants to use his stand has a right to. But a deer stand pre-hung on private property remains private property and the owner has total control over who may use it. This is one thing that I think should be changed. It is someone's personal property and it should be treated as such.
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Post by justwannano on Feb 24, 2009 11:36:54 GMT -6
I think you all are comparing apples to oranges on the deer stand vs. pre-staking issue. If I go out on a public hunting area and decide to climb in to somebody else's tree stand and use it, the DNR regulations clearly state that it's use is on a first-come first served basis, regardless of who put it up. I can hunt out of that stand as if it was public property. A deer hunter who places a stand a week before the season on public ground does so knowing that anyone who wants to use his stand has a right to. But a deer stand pre-hung on private property remains private property and the owner has total control over who may use it. However, if you pre-stake a snare in the ditch you do so with the expectation that the snare remains your property and the animals caught in that snare are yours. It would be illegal for me to set and use that snare and it would be illegal for me to remove an animal from that snare. If you want to go down that road, then maybe they will decide that animals caught in roadside snares can be taken by whoever happens upon them first. I don't think any of us would like to see that. I am glad to see the post by chrisf. I echo those sentiments. I have been following the posts for awhile now. I believe that there is a less vocal majority out there that really does not support pre-staking in the ROW. We also should thank the BOD for all that they do. It is a very thankless job. Even though some do not agree with their votes on this particualr issue, I believe that they do have the best interest of trapping and trappers at heart. We do still live in a democracy and everyone is free to voice their opinions on issues. We also live with decisions that are made by those we elect to office. If you don't like how your elected officials vote, make your opinion known and then step up and run! Here I go again. Supposed to be lurking Thank you chelsa for finally jumping in here. Hope others do too. Your apples to oranges comparison is not really valid. Its not the same. Now if the guy had left his shotgun in the stand and you used it then the comparison would be valid. If you were a duck hunter and were told that someone is complaining about your success and was promoting no decoys out until after sunrise what would you say to that? Thats whats happening here. Have a good one just
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Post by coontrap on Feb 24, 2009 12:19:24 GMT -6
For those wanting to know what the DNR has to do to change rules go to the DNR web site on the left hand side scroll down to ADDITIONAL INFORMATION and click DNR RULES
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Post by daveplueger on Feb 24, 2009 12:26:02 GMT -6
Chris, I guess I didnt explain myself well enough. You stated that pre-staking is intimidating to other trappers and therefore recrutement of new trappers has diminished. my point with the 70s was that at that time there was 10 times the competition there is today (and they pre-staked back than) yet young trappers continued to get into trapping regardless.
putput, why is a trapper that works his butt off and derives a fair portion of his income through the trap line labeled as greedy? If thats the case anyone who utilizes the land to gain an income could be labeled as greedy. That would include farmers, loggers, etc. Fur is a natural, renewable resource and studies have shown that we arent able to harvest enough coon to keep them at healthy levels. Ending pre-staking will only add to that problem. I guarentee the harvest will suffer.
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Post by jdrogge on Feb 24, 2009 12:34:00 GMT -6
I agree Dave
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smitty71
Hyper-Active Trap Talker
Posts: 104
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Post by smitty71 on Feb 24, 2009 12:51:22 GMT -6
After reading through all of the posts and trying to get "informed" to the best of my abilities I will say this -
This was my first year running a water line. Opening day I had scouted a 30 mile round trip line and started pounding in sets at 8am sharp. What I found at 7 out the 15 ROW culverts was a staked trap/pocket set already made. I knew nobody could have beat me to at least the first 2 ROW locations I had and still there were sets already made just waiting to have the trap set and lure/bait added. At first I got a little pissed off, but after a few minutes of thinking about it I was glad that I knew they were there. I decided that if they were on one side of the culvert that I would go to the other and so on. I ended up meeting 3 different guys that had pre-staked on this route and had some good discussions about how long they had been trapping, why they prestaked and had 2 of the 3 thank me for not messing with their stuff. I guess it all came down to respect for me. I ended up liking the fact that I knew they were there from the very beginning. Some of these guys have been setting the same pocket for coon for 20 years and rather than step on their toes I tried to learn something from them if I could.
To make a short story long, I'm all for pre-staking and agree with ADC and others that it actually keeps the complaints down compared to the number we will get when new guys (like myself)don't know where everybody is and what trails or pockets they set from day one, or before. Seems that if "we all" have the right and then "some" don't utilize this right then they have no right to get mad at anyone but themselves.
Later
Smitty
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 24, 2009 13:14:28 GMT -6
After reading through all of the posts and trying to get "informed" to the best of my abilities I will say this - This was my first year running a water line. Opening day I had scouted a 30 mile round trip line and started pounding in sets at 8am sharp. What I found at 7 out the 15 ROW culverts was a staked trap/pocket set already made. I knew nobody could have beat me to at least the first 2 ROW locations I had and still there were sets already made just waiting to have the trap set and lure/bait added. At first I got a little pissed off, but after a few minutes of thinking about it I was glad that I knew they were there. I decided that if they were on one side of the culvert that I would go to the other and so on. I ended up meeting 3 different guys that had pre-staked on this route and had some good discussions about how long they had been trapping, why they prestaked and had 2 of the 3 thank me for not messing with their stuff. I guess it all came down to respect for me. I ended up liking the fact that I knew they were there from the very beginning. Some of these guys have been setting the same pocket for coon for 20 years and rather than step on their toes I tried to learn something from them if I could. To make a short story long, I'm all for pre-staking and agree with ADC and others that it actually keeps the complaints down compared to the number we will get when new guys (like myself)don't know where everybody is and what trails or pockets they set from day one, or before. Seems that if "we all" have the right and then "some" don't utilize this right then they have no right to get mad at anyone but themselves. Later Smitty Great first post Smitty. Glad to see you did yopur homework so to speak rather than just looking in and jumping to conclusions. Welcome to ITT and keep up the good posts. JD Rogge "good for membership"? Yep, as long they don't get mad and leave. A good civil dissagreement is how all "families" should solve their problems. And no matter how bad you may disagree with the next trapper we all got to stick together... somehow. ;D ~ADC~
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Post by jdrogge on Feb 24, 2009 13:28:28 GMT -6
I'm trying to get my point across and stay civil about this, and this is a hot button issue for me, so I apologize if I've stepped out of line at all. I'll try to be civil so you don't have to edit me again Jayme ;D, but this topic really gets me fired up
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Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 24, 2009 13:29:52 GMT -6
I'm trying to get my point across and stay civil about this, and this is a hot button issue for me, so I apologize if I've stepped out of line at all. I'll try to be civil so you don't have to edit me again Jayme ;D, but this topic really gets me fired up Thanks. I've lost a little sleep over it as well. ~ADC~
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Post by centraliowa (ryan) on Feb 24, 2009 13:42:56 GMT -6
To everyone that thinks ending pre-staking is going to help you beat the compitition you need to understand you will only be setting yourself up for disappointment. I and along with many others that run a lot of traps will still set our traps where we think we can catch animals. I will not set with in a foot of your set but i will set a trap with in 10 feet. I will not take the time to construct a great set or look to see where other trappers are, I will be moving fast and have 4 traps with me when i walk down to the water. All 4 are getting set and then i am on to the next location. this is just how it will work for me and for many others. I will not steal your catch or mess with your traps but i need to get my traps out also.
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