|
Post by Scott W. on Feb 23, 2009 18:31:47 GMT -6
Good letter Eric, I am beginning to wonder if the few of us on this board (in our little fish bowl) who are vocally in favor of prestaking are really in the over all minority. Doesn't mean I'm going to be quick to change my mind, but I do trust the responses that those board members who sent out letters are reporting to us. Sure would like to think that better education could sway some opinions, but maybe the anti-prestakers are as stubborn as I am. Are those of you board members who voted to ban prestaking willing to try to educate your constituency to be in favor of prestaking, or would you rather just stay with public opinion as it is? As for the censoring, I don't think any one who wanted to voice their opinion for or against the issue were ever censored. I just don't think it is right to bash your opinion against the board . They are in an unenviable position and deserve our respect whether we agree with them or not. Scott
|
|
|
Post by daveplueger on Feb 23, 2009 19:34:16 GMT -6
So, Lets say a hard roller must now try and get a substantial line out. It used to take him 7-10 days of pre-staking, now he has to try and do it during the regular season. Day 6 rolls around, only 75% of his line set, a strong cold front rolls through and he is shut down. And some still think removing pre-staking wont have an impact on the harvest? It most certainly can, and will!
sending out questionaires to a handfull of trappers is far from accuratly assesing how ALL the trappers in the state feel about the subject.
Most trappers who are against pre-staking are not recognizing the big picture. We lose this and its just another step on the ladder to losing it all!!
|
|
|
Post by centraliowa (ryan) on Feb 23, 2009 20:01:37 GMT -6
I do not believe the ITA was acting in the best interest of trappers. Do you realize what is happening? If this goes through we loose pre-staking this year. Next year we loose ROW, the following year we loose snares, and then body grips. This is just the first step of the ladder and the worst part is that it was trappers that started it. Say what you want about the public wanting it, cause I don't believe it. When my membership expires I will not be renewing. The ITA is not protecting anything. Waste of my money. I just read in the T&PC that the national membership was down, well I wonder why? We have all ready talked about that on here. It is time to do some things differently. Wake up! ADC you talk about taking a pro-active approach, where was the ITA before this was brought to a vote?
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Feb 23, 2009 20:07:53 GMT -6
Jeff thanks for communicating with the trappers you represent.
Guys this forum is a place where we can really make a difference on Iowa issues. We need to stick together even if we disagree.
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Feb 23, 2009 20:11:34 GMT -6
Did not see there was a page 2. Thanks to all you directors who sent out letters to your trappers, even if I don't like what they voted.
DNR from an administrative basis, will do what they do whether we like it or not it seems.
I still say this is more a "leaving equipment out" issue than a prestaking issue. Every time fur gets up very high we lose something. Just remember that next time some of you start pining for a fur boom.
|
|
|
Post by longpond on Feb 23, 2009 20:15:21 GMT -6
David sending out a questioner to my district members is what i can do for my members if they don't even belong to ITA, NTA, FTA, then the heii with them, and all of a sudden they want a say..........JEFF
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Feb 23, 2009 20:19:34 GMT -6
For those of you talking about leaving this forum please consider this. This forum is likely the best form of communication Iowa trappers have ever had. Most of us would not have even known about the pre staking issue without this forum, till it was a done deal.
Fact is we at least got to discuss it with many BOD's, something in the old days likely would not have happened.
Whether I agree with all that has been done or not, I owe it to myself and my fellow Iowa trappers to stay on top of things.
So far the best way I have seen to do that is on this forum right here.
|
|
|
Post by Scott W. on Feb 23, 2009 20:43:06 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by tjk on Feb 23, 2009 20:46:54 GMT -6
k9 good statement!
|
|
|
Post by daveplueger on Feb 23, 2009 21:04:58 GMT -6
Jeff, with all due respect, those that purchase a furharvesting license should be allowed a say on any furharvesting related subject. As much as Iwish EVERY trapper were a member of some trapping assoc. I cannot chastise those who arent. They have their reasons for not joining, some are justified and some arent but they still deserve input. IMO
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Feb 23, 2009 21:05:41 GMT -6
Appreciate the communication.
What was the chronological order this all came down:
*Feb 1 BOD meeting *Feb 8 to last week some letters were sent out to some trappers inquiring about pre staking.
*When was the discussion with Ron Andrews regarding the pre staking issue on behalf of the trappers of IA, wanting changes?
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Feb 23, 2009 21:06:53 GMT -6
Gene I was just reading your post. I think one reason some of us can't fully relate to a majority of trappers being against prestaking is because of the regional differences. It seems like some of you have some real jerks for trapping nieghbors. It is just not a problem here, so I assume it is not a problem anywhere.
The true victim in all this is water trap prestaking, which has absolutely not been a problem at all. Not to knock the snaring, but throughout this whole debate I have asked again and again for even one complaint or problem with water traps. There have been NONE that I can find.
|
|
cinch1
Shy Talker
Trapper second DAD FIRST
Posts: 48
|
Post by cinch1 on Feb 23, 2009 21:07:27 GMT -6
I have sit here and read statements in the last 2 to 3 weeks and know many of you have alot passion in the pre staking issue. But to bash the people that take time to be on the board of directors or officers of the ITA is just wrong. So if they are doing such a terrible job then you run for office go to the meetings. I want to see you stand up for what you believe in and put you time where all of your mouths are. I have been on the board and served time for the ITA and know of the sacrifice all of the people put in for the ITA. Take time from your family and hobbies and not even mention the expenses that people like Demoman and Longpond have put in to defend the trappers of IA. No one is going to make a stand that makes everyone happy all of the time so go and walk in the directors shoes and see how it feels. Every CO I have talked to say that eliminating pre staking would be a good thing for the trappers as they do nothing but hear problems from many different people about it. The other thing when I read of a long liner taking 6 days to put out a line give me a break. If they do the pre work and know their locations it will not take 6 days to put out a long line. This is just miscommunication and trying to get sympathy. So what your catch is not huge the first or second night it takes weeks to make truly large collections of fur not the first few nights. Quite whining and figure out a way to be efficient and do a good ethical job of fur harvesting.
Cinch 1
|
|
|
Post by iayogi17 on Feb 23, 2009 21:23:14 GMT -6
I'm starting to think that the only ones that are taking advantage of prestaking are the hard cores and that the average trapper with a couple doz traps could give a care less about prestaking
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Feb 23, 2009 21:35:45 GMT -6
Cinch 1 with all due respect. Volunteering, it goes with the territory, many have been there, done that and have and will continue to do so.........if you accept the position so be it.......if one doesn't like what all is expected then it's time to step aside.
Every CO you've talked to wants the changes.......that doesn't mean they all want or see the need for changes, differing areas?
As to taking 6 days to get out a long line, lots of variables and when you're catching fur it can take several days......I suppose if one's not catching much fur it probably doesnt' take as long.....one's idea of a long line can be completely different than anothers, 100, 200, 300 sets out.............vast levels of motivation, 4 hrs of sleep per night is a long night for some.....others can't imagine running like that day after day.
|
|
|
Post by ringtail on Feb 23, 2009 21:43:48 GMT -6
I guess I have to disagree with your statement Jeff. If a trapper buys a Iowa furharvester license, he/she should have a voice on rule changes in Iowa whether or not a member of an association.
|
|
|
Post by x-demoman on Feb 23, 2009 21:44:23 GMT -6
I think that some here are beginning to realize is there is a problem with pre placing in the ROW. As stated earlier, maybe the minority are the ones we are hearing from here. I do know, because of PMs, that there are several members here who have been silent and will continue to be and are not with the so called majority.
Dave what if it snow the week before season opens and everything freezes up? We can not contol the weather. It is not my responsibility to see that the high roller catches X amount of fur.
The question was asked why we have only questioned a small number of trapper. I have been taken to task for not representing my districts wishes. I have contacted all current ITA members (as of last Tuesday) in my district and as the results come in they are pretty close to what I have been told the past 20 years.
Again this is not a new issue. It has been on the table for atleast the past 3 years and you were so notified. To the best of my knowledge no one contacted their director, came and spoke at a BOD meeting or expressed any concerns at all.
The discussion now has spread to no pre placing on dry land only, water is ok. Also offered has been how about just no pre placing of snares, foot traps and 220s are ok. It seems that everyone is just wanting to protect their corner of the world to ------ with the other guy if I can keep mine. It is simply no pre placing in the ROW or business as usual. Everyone can have their say when/if it comes up for public input at the ICN and state wide meeting. I urge you to find out when and where these will occur. I know the ones I have participated in the past 10 years or so have been verrrrry pooooorly attend by trappers.
The ITA BOD has not betrayed Iowa trappers. Quit the contrary. They are in the forefront of all the battles current and past. I feel good about the participation we can expect now that so many are so concerned. Too bad it took an experience like this to wake up so many.
The ITA DID NOT give the DNR a recommendation on pre placeing. Much of the input has come from the COs. Again I do not have documented numbers but have been told by a very good friend who is a CO most of their trapping complaints is concerning the pre placing. And no they are not just from the whinners, many are public related.
Now that we have agreed that we can disagree move foreward and use the available avenues and procedures to express your opinion. They should address the topic being discussed, not mine or anyone elses family history. I hope to see many of you at the upcoming meetings.
I will continue to monitor the site but will probably post very little. The discussion is yours and I don't feel qualified to answer your questions and can not speak for the DNR. Ask them.
Gene Director Dist. 2 Adair, Cass, Union, Adams, Taylor & Ringold Co.
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Feb 23, 2009 21:53:03 GMT -6
Are minutes taken at the BOD meetings?
|
|
|
Post by furman on Feb 23, 2009 21:54:25 GMT -6
Prestaking is a tool for the trapper to use to spread out his work load in a very short season. A very important tool
Bristleback has been hitting the nail on the head……
As I stated before….if an anti was voting on this issue they would vote to get rid of prestating it’s one step closer to there goal of eliminating trapping and so the guys that voted to get rid of it are going along with the Antis
|
|
|
Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 23, 2009 22:14:55 GMT -6
Well it looks like I am still a lurker That being said this is a bold faced lie and You know it Gene To the best of my knowledge no one contacted their director, came and spoke at a BOD meeting or expressed any concerns at all.Gene Director Dist. 2 Adair, Cass, Union, Adams, Taylor & Ringold Co. It was said to my face by a biologist that the state has to have those ICN meetings by law but they are not required to listen to us at all, sounds like SOME of our directors of the ITA. I spoke with a man last yr that said he would not support an org that would not support him, talking of the live markets and coyotes I now know where he was coming from. The feller was selling 75 - 100 a yr a mite higher than the 5 per yr the ITA came up with. All that does not matter at this stage in the game. I understand you feel you were not represented in your beliefs on the issue of prestaking and you are upset about it. Trust me you are not the only one. However there is nothing to be gained in bitching and moaning about it now. The thing that is needed is to see if there is a way to undo what's been done or if indeed it needs undone, also how to prevent it happening again and about even more important issues. You and others getting pissed and dropping your memberships to the ITA and leaving here certainlly will not help. ~ADC~
|
|
|
Post by justwannano on Feb 23, 2009 22:52:12 GMT -6
I was going to post to this discussion but I decided not to. What I had typed was full of frustration. We have heard from a couple of ITA reps but none have given their reasoning for their vote. Where are the other ITA officials?
Why wouldn't Ron Andrews talk to us? The reason he told me, yes I emailed him, was too many questions. Well whats he there for? My comments to prestaking posts were as an Iowa trapper. Trying to figure what the hell was happening.
I've curbed my comments because I am not a ITA member. Used to be. Even belonged to the NTA. Spending that money didn't make sense when I haven't trapped in years. I doubt that any of you remember that I asked when the ITA convention was. I was going to join the ITA then. Hmmm They don't know where its going to be? Or when? Now I'm getting frustrated again wondering what the ITA is for.
Done conmmenting. I'll just be lurking for a while. just
|
|
|
Post by ~ADC~ on Feb 23, 2009 23:12:08 GMT -6
Maybe I'm not being clear so I'll try once more to explain... There are lots of us, me included that feel the BOD did not handle this correctly. Personally, I'd of liked to seen them postpone this vote and come here and use other methods to see for sure what is the best vote for ALL trappers. However that is NOT what happened so to keep pushing it in their faces that they may have screwed up what we need to do is move on, get everyone on the same page and see what can be done to fix this screw-up if indeed we determine it was a screw up in the first place. It doesn't matter if you're pissed or not at the BOD and the ITA for what they did. What matters is what can be done to prevent it from happening again. Stopping posting does not help to find answers. If we can't disagree on an issue and try to find common ground then we'll all be sorry soon. "United we stand" ~ADC~
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Feb 23, 2009 23:27:46 GMT -6
If someone is going to REPRESENT folks, they ought to answer questions, there is bound to be challenges, questions raised, all be it I agree it needs to be done respectfully........
There are still several questions that have been avoided, passed over, not answered.............which raises lots of questions....
*Chronological order this all unfolded, BOD meeting, communication to the DNR, letters to trappers asking for their thoughts on the pre staking subject.........? *Surprise vote...........really, why? *Minutes from the BOD meeting, let's see them. *This topic has been on the table for 3 yrs so "we've been informed".....I'm sorry but that is unnacceptable.....why was it "pressed NOW" *Are there any other "issues" that have been on the table for X years that we might want to be "refreshed" on? I'm serious! *SILENT majority.........WOW *Pre staking was a DOT issue with kill poles, now it seems to be a public complaint issue.......? *Gene, as of last Tues you contacted all the memeber in your district, last Tues was Feb 17, the BOD meeting, .......vote was Feb 1......hummmm, seems the communication to the constituents was AFTER THE FACT? *"The ITA did not give a recommendation to the DNR on pre placing".........was the BOD vote on pre placing "communicated to" the DNR/Ron Andrews?
|
|
|
Post by chrisf on Feb 23, 2009 23:38:11 GMT -6
I have been following these pre-staking threads for quite some time now, and feel it is time to weigh in with the current status of pre-staking, as well as my views.
As Gene stated above, the recent discussion and vote at the last ITA board meeting had absolutely nothing to do with the Iowa DNR introducing any rule, as there has not been anything introduced at this time. There has been no changes in the status of pre-staking in Iowa road ditches at this time, and in the event language is introduced to be brought before the DNR Commission for consideration, there will be a time period for those on either side of the issue to voice their concerns.
That being said, I will move on to my views on pre-staking in the public ROW. I undoubtedly will offend some on here, but I would challenge you to take some time to analyze my words here without jumping to conclusions. I firmly believe ending pre-staking is a pro-trapping move and is a positive thing for the average trapper and the long-term preservation of our trapping heritage. I will attempt to explain how I have arrived at this conclusion.
As written on this forum in the different threads, I can surmise two motivations for pre-staking. Some do it to reserve their spots, and prevent competition from setting the best spots in a ditch, or possibly discourage other trappers from setting that location alltogether. I have not read any support here for the pre-staker who uses this as his motivation for pre-staking. In my opinion that is good.
The second motivation for pre-staking is to assist the longliner in getting more sets out in a short amount of time. This is the type of pre-staking that I see support for on this forum. Depending on the style and method of trapping you do, this may certainly help get more sets out opening weekend, but regardless of the motivation for pre-staking, at the end of the day, the pre-staker has discouraged others from using the public area with traps that are not even set. I know, I know, the person that waits until opening day has the right to set right next to the pre-staked trap, and sometimes another trapper will, but I'm sure every honest thinking person on this forum knows that the vast majority of trappers will pass these pre-staked locations. This is a fact. The other morning I spoke to a neighbor of mine who is just your regular, average hobby trapper, who recently started trapping, and he summed it up rather well. He said it is very "intimidating" to set the same bridge or culvert that is pre-staked. The bottom line is that pre-staked traps do discourage other trappers from setting there.
And I know, I know, these other trappers have every right to pre-stake as well. The bottom line is that most new or smaller hobby trappers do not and will not pre-stake. The majority of trappers in this state are not as passionate as us longliners and others that frequent a forum such as this, but are just as essential to the long-term survival of trapping for future generations. These are the silent individuals that have been surveyed by directors like Gene and Jeff. The numbers reflected in these surveys are very representative of the trappers I contact while performing my job(when not trapping.) The bottom line here is that pre-staking has direct negative impact on recruitment and retention of current and future trappers.
There are many threats to fishing, hunting, and trapping, ie: Loss of habitat, changing wildlife populations in certain circumstances, humaniacs, etc. Two of the biggest threats to all three of these sports is the recruitment of new sportsmen and sportswomen, and the retention of sportsmen and sportswomen. The bottom line is that reserving trap locations ahead of the season on public access land such as ROW's is detrimental to both recruitment and retention. The new, or not as passionate as the rest of us small time trapper, is discouraged when every bridge and culvert within several miles is already taken when the whistle blows at 0800hrs on opening day. I know of cases where pre-staked traps have actually discouraged other trappers from even continuing to trap. This is sad, but the fact is that it has happened. The longliner is able to get a few more sets out, but the bottom line is that trapping as a whole has suffered. I love to make the big catches as much as the next guy, but I believe it is a sad day when personal greed outweighs the need to maintain optimal recruitment and retention of current and future trappers.
There has been much talk of the problem being water vs dry land sets, snares and conibears vs footholds, northern Iowa vs Southern Iowa etc, but as an Iowa Conservation Officer, I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no difference on the location or type of trap when it comes to getting the complaints. Without a doubt, the biggest trapping complaint I get is on the issue of pre-staking. The complaint is that it is B.S. that other trappers can reserve their spots before the season begins. These complaints are ~90% made by other trappers. This trend holds true with the vast majority of Iowa Conservation Officers across the state. Even though all of us here know that the spot is not legally reserved in any way, the fact is that in most cases the spot IS actually reserved, as the majority of trappers will pass the location by. I meet and talk to a heck of alot of trappers in my occupation. There is absolutely no question in my mind that the vast majority of Iowa furharvester license holders that trap would end pre-staking tomorrow, and put all trappers on an even playing field at 0800hrs when the season starts. I am one of those trappers.
I know some of you will not agree with my thinking as spelled out here, but I do believe that ending pre-staking on the Right of Ways is the right thing to do, and is a pro-trapping move. I feel it is giving something back to the smaller, average trapper who is essential to the long-term survival of the sport that we all here so dearly love.
I do want to take one final paragraph to thank all directors for the job you do representing all trappers, members and non-members alike. I have been there, and it is more times than not a very thankless job. I would strongly urge any member who is considering dropping out of the ITA over this or any other issue to remain a member. If you are not a member, please join. We would not be trapping today if not for the efforts of the different state associations, as well as the NTA and FTA. Please support these organizations.
Nothing in this post reflects the position or opinion of the Iowa Department of Natural Resources and is strictly my personal beliefs.
Chris Flynn longliner ITA Lifetime member #71 NTA Lifetime member #2841 Iowa Conservation Officer FTA Trapper's college graduate FBU director and trapper
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Feb 23, 2009 23:52:00 GMT -6
Chris have you ever pre staked on the ROW?
|
|
|
Post by chrisf on Feb 24, 2009 0:03:38 GMT -6
No sir. It would slow me down opening day. The only way I could see it as an advantage on getting more sets out opening day is if you have to actually pound every stake or used a large amount of bulky cage traps. cf
|
|
|
Post by jdrogge on Feb 24, 2009 0:32:16 GMT -6
Chris if you have been following these posts then you already know my opinion on this matter, but how could you think that prestaking could possibly slow you down?? Last year my partner and I had our entire line operational by around 7PM on opening day, stretched over 150 miles, this is a impossibility without prestaking. By the time you get the sets from the 1st day checked drive back and get your catch dropped off reload with gear drive back out and begin to set more you won't even accomplish it in two days. Add into this a limited time that most people have to trap and banning prestaking is one heck of a kick in the nuts and is in no way good for trapping. I understand in your position this looks like it will get rid of a lot of complaints but in reality it will just set up the next topic..."I had that trail set and they set it too" get ready Chris I have a feeling you'll be hearing that one a lot next year.
|
|
|
Post by muskrat72 on Feb 24, 2009 4:15:27 GMT -6
Ran into 4 trappers this year from wapello county to mid van buren county and NONE of us knowingly set a trail or culvert when another trap was there. We did dispatch animals for each other though.
|
|
|
Post by longpond on Feb 24, 2009 5:19:41 GMT -6
David and Mark just how do we make sure everyone that buys a FH license has a voice? Or better yet what are they doing to make sure they have one?
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Feb 24, 2009 7:21:13 GMT -6
Chris thanks for posting on this subject.
Riverrat, I love you, we are old friends from quite a ways back, but I gotta disagree with you. Gene would never lie to us, I would stake my life on that.
We can all disagree with the way ITA handled this, maybe we are right maybe we are wrong, I'm not sure. It seems a couple Directors brought it up for a vote and caught the rest of them off gaurd. However lets not forget all the good things guys like Gene have done over the years.
If not for guys like this most of you younger fellas would not know what a right of way even is cause you would never have set a trap there.
|
|