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Post by k9 on Dec 16, 2008 21:18:05 GMT -6
Gene, Dean or others, you see anything coming at us this Legislative session??
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Post by x-demoman on Dec 17, 2008 21:11:17 GMT -6
Haven't heard of any concerns from any legislation yet. Only issue I know that will be discussed at length is the pre staking in the road right of ways. Caused some real situations in some areas this fall. Some were out up to 3 months early with most 6 weeks. The main concern seems to be snares.
I know this could be a big can of worms but is an issue that needs addressed. What is every ones thought? Will be happy to take PMS and no names will leave my lips, I am open minded to suggestions.
Give me some input so we know how much discontent there is. This is an issue that can be handled by Administrative Rule.
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Nick C
Active Trap Talker
Posts: 73
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Post by Nick C on Dec 17, 2008 21:22:55 GMT -6
Like all of us, I dont want any new restrictions on any part of trapping.
But if something needs done with prestaking, rather than getting rid of it all together, maybe allow a certain time limit, if it has to come to that. Like 2 or 3 weeks before season.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Dec 17, 2008 21:31:23 GMT -6
Gene, I hate to see anymore restrictions of any kind for the folks that pre-stake the ROW's. However I couldn't see a limit of 2 weeks prior to season as an unreasonable time frame to allow everyone the chance to get plenty of pre-staking done in the ROW's..., IF it means we didn't have to open the rule book up to other potentially more restrictive laws. The real trouble I'll bet is that the farmers are planting every inch of ground they can, so they are bailing the ditches that normally sat undisturbed that late in the year. I don't blame them, I'm just observing.... How about if we can only pre-stake the ROW's 2 weeks prior to season ON LAND and allow the water guys under the bridges and the private land folks to pre-stake anytime??? ...then tell the state guys to stop mowing the ditches 2 weeks prior to season as well so I don't get my snares all cut to heck... ~ADC~
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Post by x-demoman on Dec 17, 2008 22:35:32 GMT -6
Good suggestions. Keep them coming.
Is there a reason everyone should not start at the same time? Why do some need the head start? No pre staking is allowed on state owned land, why should the road ditches be any different?
Gene
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Post by jdrogge on Dec 18, 2008 2:08:11 GMT -6
I can see Gene that you're not a pre staker by your last response, I am and I don't see it as a head start. That prestaked snare is not a legal set until it is actually SET, this is what my local DNR told me this year when I had a few individuals complaining about my pre staked snares, he told them that I was doing nothing wrong and that if it was not set they had every right to set that very spot. I do not prestake to claim trails, if someone comes along and sets on top of me so be it, I'll move further down the trail or further down the road. Because of other obligations I have very limited time to run my lines each year, and I like to run a lot of gear, so in order for me to do that I take 2 days off before season and pound out as many snares as I can in that time. I spend opening day opening loops and this year my partner and I had over 500 operating on the first day over 200 miles, but they are only out for 5 or 6 days at a time. Without prestaking it would be impossible to run a line of this size on a short timeframe. I agree some people get carried away with setting out a couple of months ahead of time, but a couple of weeks, 1 week, or even just a few days prior is not unreasonable. I personally think the 8am start on opening day is a complete waste of good trapping time, but we've already had that discussion on here so there is no reason to beat a dead horse on that one. I think some trappers don't seem to understand that the more time they spend crying to the DNR, about legal techniques no less, the more of their own rights they are pissing away, when the DNR gets sick of hearing about it they will take it away, and probably ditches right along with it. Too many whiners with their own agendas out there these days, I get sick of hearing the private land guys don't like the ditch guys, and the foothold guys don't like the snare guys, and nobody seems to like the conibear guys, what a bunch of crap ........Sorry for the big rant tonight fellas but a few of those topics get me awful fired up.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Dec 18, 2008 10:08:43 GMT -6
Makes me wonder if those "pre-staked" snares 6 weeks before season were actually lost snares from the year before. Do people really pre-stake that early?
What is the real complaint about pre-staking? Is it other trappers or is it the farmers, ect... complaining of hitting the stakes/snares with their mowers?
~ADC~
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Post by x-demoman on Dec 18, 2008 12:52:17 GMT -6
Complaint I hear are from mostly trappers and a few farmers.
Yes I do some pre staking, only water and probably 99-100% of the time I have permission from the adjacent landowner.
I hope you all understand where this could take us. Remember Nebraska last year? They did get it back but fought a battle they did not need. Illinois does not allow ANY roadside trapping.
No one wants to give up anything, but sometimes you can live with less to retain what you really want.
I was ITA president in the 70's when we had the problems with the conibears and snares in the road ditches. Al Ferris and I wrote the law currently on the books that governs snares and conibears. Some would say we lost something, but I think we retained our privileges in the road ditches and eliminated a lot of potential problems. They still arise at times but not nearly as often as prior to the changes in the road ditch trapping regs.
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Post by skunked on Dec 18, 2008 13:22:43 GMT -6
So basically in Illinois you have to have permission to trap on the other side of the fence or find some public land? There are no road side culvert sets or anything?
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Post by ~ADC~ on Dec 18, 2008 13:29:39 GMT -6
Complaint I hear are from mostly trappers and a few farmers. What's the reasons they give? ... the trappers that is... Are they just mad because someone got there first? That could happen no matter when the staking was allowed, correct? Don't get me wrong, I was mad at first when the 2 guys (at least one is a member here) pre staked over 1000 snares (many of which were in trails I'd trapped exclusively for years) but I've found a easy way around them now. They were legal for the most part and the ditch trails are first come first served. That first year it slowed my catch until I found more trails but now I know where they set and I just set other stuff til they pull out, then I return and catch the ones they missed. I've even been known to set up across the road or further up the trail on occasion of them but if it's all legal no one has a right to be pissed about it. The farmers on the other hand, ruining equipment could have a valid arguement to change the rules. That is where I thought this proposed change was coming from. If it's just jelous trappers I say leave it as is. The current law you wrote was to improve the "image" of trappers to the general public, was it not? I mean by not allowing hanging critters too close to houses and in fences for all to see??? ~ADC~
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Post by Bankrunner on Dec 18, 2008 15:54:20 GMT -6
Makes me wonder if those "pre-staked" snares 6 weeks before season were actually lost snares from the year before. Do people really pre-stake that early? What is the real complaint about pre-staking? Is it other trappers or is it the farmers, ect... complaining of hitting the stakes/snares with their mowers? ~ADC~ I was told directly by a DNR officer the county doesn't like hitting the re-rod with their mowers, people taking down the markers by the culverts, and mainly blocking culverts which results in plugging when melting/thunderstorms occur. He asked what I thought. I told him I was tired of being at the stop first, put my sets in, only to be blocked 2 feet away and my snares knocked down everyday. That stuff gets old, I could really care less if they got rid of snares and conibears in the ditches. Just leave footholds and dog proof. Less chances of killing pets, etc. BTW 80% of my stuff is in the ROW.
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Post by jdrogge on Dec 18, 2008 16:53:06 GMT -6
Good point about the early preset being last years ADC. One of the guys who called the DNR on us for prestaking this year had last years gear strung all over a couple miles of road, partially under the grass, one even had a crusty dead coon in it. I'm not saying that people shouldn't report game violations to the DNR, I do it myself when I see something thats not right, but most of these guys are just whining because they are jelous that they are getting out worked and someone is catching "their" fur. In ROW trapping competition is all part of the game, you overcome it by using good techniques and hard work, not by all this crying to the DNR crap. As far as leaving footholds and dp in ditches but no snares or conis, thats what I was talking about in my previous post, lots of agendas, willing to sacrafice what someone else does because it doesn't effect you. I'd personally rather have my pet caught in a snare than a foothold, far more pet friendly in my opinion.
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Post by bearcreektaxi on Dec 18, 2008 19:19:22 GMT -6
[quote author=admin board=general thread=1105 post=8269 time=1229628579 Don't get me wrong, I was mad at first when the 2 guys (at least one is a member here) pre staked over 1000 snares.[/quote]
You weren't the only one. I didn't make too many friends that year but honestly someone has done that to me every year and it's usually never the same guy. I usually just set up on the other side of the road and move one. There's lots a trails out there and nobody can set them all, believe me I've tried.
I don't understand all the complaining about pre-staking, I do very little of it any more, maybe 10% of my line, but it is a very useful tool if your working with a limited time frame. During the time I was prestaking a lot I was running 1000 snares for 1 week because I was in college and could only justify skipping classes for 1 week. I did this for two reasons, one because I love to trap, and also because I could make more money in 7 days then working a whole year at low wage college student job. I bought a lot of books with dead coons.
I think we're making a huge mistake bringing up any changes to the trapping regs with the current condition of the state house. I would let sleeping dogs lie, but that's just me. Don't be suprised if they don't stop at prestaking. Besides what will Trappers have to complain about once prestaking laws are changed, it will just be something else then.
BTW Being a farmer myself, Im not sure what circumstances would arise that a stake in the ditch would tear up a piece of machinery. If I'm in a ditch with a tractor I've got more problems that a little piece of re-rod.
Just my Opinion
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Post by Bankrunner on Dec 18, 2008 19:21:06 GMT -6
Trust me, I run more snares than anything. I agree about pets in snares but it is not your or my pet in that snare. I see alot of ditch hunters anymore and that is what worries me.
Here is my question. How do you turn in illegals, DNR won't do nothing unless they pretty much catch them in the act. They steal your stuff and their's is still there or when they go to pull they take everybody's. I have only one problem on my line with a pair. Knock down snares, you name it. Found a spot this year where they even used my snare pole they stole.
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Post by x-demoman on Dec 18, 2008 21:13:34 GMT -6
I will try to answer some of the questions and comment on the info so far.
2 years ago the DNR came to the ITA and ask our opinion on pre staking. The BOD responded we would try and police it our selfs and could support pre staking 2 weeks prior to the open season.
Complaint from trappers: How do you respond we confronted by prestakers who say "I was here first find another location"? Yes it has, still does and will continue. If everyone was as accommodating to other trappers as the ITT trappers are we would not have a problem. This is really difficult when it is a younger person who is confronted, intimidated, challenged and told to get the hell out of here!!
I (Gene) do not pre stake. I do but in a limited fashion. I realize when you have such a short time to trap you need every advantage to save time you can get and I applaud those guys for their hard work.
Yes pre staking is legal.
It may appear that I am against the prestakers and snares men. Quit the contrary. I trap mainly in the water and use a few 220s. I see very few snares because that is not where my focus is. I do see the kill circles after a catch. It is great that we are not all trying to concentrate on the same areas.
I am not the bad guy here, I am the one who will be representing you at the ITA Board meetings, DNR meetings and everywhere trapping is threatened. My goal here is to find out the feeling of the majority of ITT members, what they are willing to fight for, trade for or do they just want to bitch and whine and let someone else do it so they have no blame when things change. I have always supported what is best for trapper in general not any particular segment of the trapping fraternity. Some will always think they are being picked on.
Keep the input coming, no one is winning yet. Pretty much a toss up of 2 weeks early or to hell with them prestakers if it means loosing the road ditches for trapping.
Gene
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Post by BigT on Dec 18, 2008 21:27:44 GMT -6
I ran a few snares in the ditches this year and a few conibears. Sorry to say but that kind of trapping did not trip my trigger. I am neither for or against prestaking since I am new to it all, BUT I think trapping season starts on the 1st Saturday of November so that is when it should start.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Dec 18, 2008 22:48:02 GMT -6
Gene, I'm gonna stick with this....
IF you HAVE TO make a change to avoid losing pre-staking all together, THEN 2 weeks prior to the start of season seems to me to be a fair compromise. Truth be told I can't see even knowing for sure where to make your sets any more than 2 weeks prior to season.
FWIW I do VERY little pre-staking.
~ADC~
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Post by bearcreektaxi on Dec 18, 2008 23:44:39 GMT -6
I Complaint from trappers: How do you respond we confronted by prestakers who say "I was here first find another location"? Yes it has, still does and will continue. If everyone was as accommodating to other trappers as the ITT trappers are we would not have a problem. This is really difficult when it is a younger person who is confronted, intimidated, challenged and told to get the hell out of here!! Gene Sad to say but this will continue to happen wether prestaking continues or not. I have no idea why but it seems to be that way around here with some guys, the best part is their usually too cowardly to actually confront somebody they just steal your gear and move on. Personally I am against giving up any rights that we currently have PERIOD. If the DNR needs a sacrificial lamb for this legislative session lets see what they want. If trapppers keep pushing this issue with complaints to their CO we're simply just cutting off our nose to spite our face. Like I've said before prestaking isn't that big of a deal to me anymore, but at one time is was very useful, I hate to limit another trappers options just because I don't use that tool much anymore. For instance I HATE the use of 220's in the ROW's, I think that's just asking for it, BUT I will not complain because someone chooses to set 220's in the ROW, that is their choice, just as prestaking is.
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Post by ringtail on Dec 19, 2008 6:43:54 GMT -6
I would hate to see prestaking completely eliminated. I also have a limited time to trap and prestaking is a great asset to putting up good numbers in the limited time I trap.
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Post by jim blakley aka Gadget on Dec 19, 2008 7:59:53 GMT -6
Good Luck Guys !!!!! I would love It If we could do It In MN.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Dec 19, 2008 9:23:22 GMT -6
This is an issue that can be handled by Administrative Rule. Gene could you explain that further in case some don't get what it means. ~ADC~
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Post by jdrogge on Dec 19, 2008 12:09:53 GMT -6
I'm all for the two week limit, that seems fair, its plenty of time.Gene I'm not trying to make you look like the bad guy, and if any of my posts looked like that I apologize, I appreciate all the hard work that you do for the ITA.
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Post by bearcreektaxi on Dec 19, 2008 12:59:40 GMT -6
Gene, I apologize if you feel that my posts made you look like the bad guy, I appreciate you asking for input on this issue.
My basic argument is if we lose prestaking this year, what do we lose next year? Where does it stop? More regulations just seem to make room for more regulations.
Honestly what is the real beef with prestaking? Will these new regulations also limit pre-bating or pre-digging pockets these would both seem to fall into the same category as prestaking? Or what about leaving a concrete block in a culvert (which I have no problem with and think is a brilliant idea) from season to season, or putting them out before season in order to use K9's block set? What exactly are we talking about? Are we talking about disposable stakes, wood stakes, re-rod stakes, lets get some details. General wording can be very dangerous.
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Post by iayogi17 on Dec 19, 2008 13:37:11 GMT -6
I'm all for prestaking. This was my first year and I only went out the weekend before. But if we add limits to prestaking who is really going to enforce the ruling. Why add more to the plate for the officers that they most likely woundn't enforce to much. The only problems I had or see is from other trapper crying that you had gear out already.
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Post by x-demoman on Dec 19, 2008 21:07:49 GMT -6
Limit of 1-2 weeks prior to season seems to be what most can live with. I know no one wants to loose (give up) anything. BUT and this is hypothitical, what if you were give the choice of no pre staking or no road ditch trapping. This is my question and no one is even suggesting it. I make this suggestion to those who say I will give up nothing. Sometimes it just don't work that way and there has to be give and take.
As stated in a earlier post the CO's don't need more to do and probably would not do it anyway unless they were after someone in particular.
Good discussion guys. You are probably some of the most ethical and moral trapper in the state and are setting the example for others to follow. I am proud to be able to work with and communicate (and learn) with such a decicated group. Give yourselfs a hand and pat on the back, you deserve it.
I understand where everyone is coming from and no none of the comments were meet to be personal. I know how easy it is to get pretty fired up when what we love to do is questioned and threatened. I will report what I have learned here at our BOD meeting when/if the discussion comes up.
Thanks Gene
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Post by dfox on Dec 19, 2008 22:20:21 GMT -6
I know no one wants to loose (give up) anything. BUT and this is hypothitical, what if you were give the choice of no pre staking or no road ditch trapping. That one is easy for me, I'd be willing to give up the pre staking. Most of my trapping is in the ROW. I can live with 1-2 weeks of pre-staking ahead of time also.
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Post by furgood on Dec 19, 2008 23:50:43 GMT -6
Demoman. Sorry but we still haven't got road right of way trapping back in Ne. I drive around and just want to cry sometimes because of all the good spots I can no longer set. I'm hopeful we can get them back in some capacity. I will do my part by lobbying my state representitives. Be careful with what you have in Iowa, it is a wonderful thing.
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Post by dfox on Dec 20, 2008 10:24:36 GMT -6
I say leave it the way it is. If you take an inch, they will want a mile. We can't afford to lose what we have. I know a lot of bird hunters would like to have snares and conibears banned from being used on public ground and ROWs. We definately can't afford to lose using these tools in these places.
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Post by Eric Rector on Dec 20, 2008 11:21:14 GMT -6
With the DNR facing a budget shortfall due to the states lack of funds and a decline in people who choose hunting, fishing and trapping to recreate (license fees) coupled with losing even more people when they raise the license fee's, I think the DNR would be wise to not even broach the subject with trappers and leave well enough be, unless they are willing to cut off the hand that feeds them, THE SPORTSMAN. If they reduce or eliminate the ROW for trapping, then they should also eliminate it for hunting, picking aspargus, mushrooms, fishing in some locations, etc, etc.
Trappers need to use common sense when setting in the ROW, every sport has it's knuckleheads that push it to the extreme, it's the minority that give the majority a bad name. I set the ROW with both snares and conibears, I do no prestaking as my personal belief is that it is not about numbers or money, I'm just glad to be able to do something that I enjoy doing.
Somewhere along the lines, the DNR has lost or is losing focus on the fact of who funds their program, not the insurance companies, tree huggers or bunny lovers, it's the SPORTSMAN
So Gene, my opinion as is obvious would be to do nothing, leave it as is.
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meandean
Hyper-Active Trap Talker
Posts: 152
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Post by meandean on Dec 20, 2008 14:23:56 GMT -6
Gene, What are the chances of getting the 33o half out of water? Also what about a lifetime fur harvester license after 65?
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