Letter from Iowa Carry

[longpond]

Steve Hensyel February 10 at 8:14am Reply
Hello,

I write this letter to you today asking for some simple things. We all lead busy lives. We hear and see things going on around us daily we don't like, but rarely take time to do something about it. As the Vice President of an Iowa gun rights advocacy group, Iowa Carry, we have sought to build an action center that makes it quick and easy for you tell your elected officials when your right to self defense among others is being trampled. Thus, we came up with our LAC (legislative action center). Currently there are a number of poor bills circulating the capital building and also a few very fine ones. We're primarily concerned with passing HF2255 (the NRA, Iowa Carry backed, Carry Reform Bill - this bill removes the sheriffs discretion to arbitrarily deny you a permit to carry), and HF2200 is first rate legislation also. Study bills like SSB1033 are junk. Take one minute, hit this link, and act.

www.capwiz.com/iowacarry/issues/?style=D&

This portion of Iowa Carry's site is set up so that you can put in your information and a box can be checked to 'remember you' when you return. Thus, each time you come back to utilize the site for current issues, you'll be two button clicks away from sending a letter to the correct people. The letters are prewritten, so you don't have to be a wordsmith to help out. You can send the letter via email, or print it to be mailed. The site also allows you to look up your officials via your address so you can write your own letters and speak to them on other issues as well. The Iowa Carry LAC holds a myriad of other attributes. I encourage you to look through it at your leisure, however, the current focus is on bombarding our elected officials with correspondence on these issues.

Iowa Carry has made the LAC as fast and easy as humanly possible. Hit the site, send the information, sign up to be contacted, and Iowa Carry can send you out an alert each time we need to have letters sent - no spam, just the basics. Simple. Fast. Easy. We brought this tool online for our membership and within the first 24 hours, we sent nearly 500 emails to elected officials. This kind of action turns heads...

For those of you interested in Iowa Carry on more levels, check us out:

www.iowacarry.org/index.php

My sincere thanks to you for doing the right thing. Iowa is morphing into something different and you'll only be able to help shape it if you act. I encourage you to forward this onto everyone you think is interested in the right to bear arms within this fine state.

Regards,

Michael Ware
Executive Vice President of Operations - Iowa Carry

[k9]

I am torn on this issue as I think all who are responsible should be able to carry concealed per their second amendment rights. However there needs to be a way to sort out the people who are mentally unable to handle the responsiblity of carrying concealed.

A County Sheriff should know most of his local folks well enough to glean out those who are likely unqualified. The problem is many Sheriff's are inserting thier political agenda's ahead of just plain old common sense. Some just will not issue permits for any reason.

The Sheriff is your only elected law enforcement official that you have direct control over. None of these State agencies are subject to your rath like a county sheriff is.

I can't understand why the Sheriff's who are not issuing permits are not feeling more heat from the voters. If you take it out of the Sheriff's hands you lose that ability to locally impact the issue.

Further, if you are looking to move to another county and it means that much to you, research it ahead of time. If the Sheriff is against permits move to the neighboring county and make it clear to the Sheriff, the Supervisors, and other leadership in the county you passed on exactly WHY you will not be a taxpayer in thier county.

I don't understand why groups like this are fighting this statewide. They should be targeting the offending Sheriff's one by one and sending the message that way. A blanket or shotgun theory lumps the good Sheriff's in with the bad ones, and forces those Sheriff's to join the "problem" Sheriff's in opposing Iowa Concealed Carry.

Stop going after the group, and target those Sheriff's who refuse to issue permits. Next election for one of those Sheriff's come at them with ads and get out the vote campaigns. You would be surprised the impact a few hundred votes here and there in these County races can make. Unseat a Sheriff or two, or make them uncomfortable, and you will bring the rest into line.

[centraliowa (ryan)]

Absolutely K9, when we had our sheriff elections 4 years ago I received calls from a couple of the candidates. I feel they were both qualified but one supported the CWP and the other danced around my question a bit. So I voted for Chad Leanord for Dallas county sheriff and have not had any problems with getting my CWP.

[jaeger]

The problem with the sheriffs giving out the weapons permits is, sometimes they give it to their Buddy's and then the buddy keeps it under his truck seat and some punk steals it and then sells it to a " gangsta " in Iowa City who happens to be an informant for the police. True story! Happened in Washington County.

[justwannano]

I joined Iowa Carry--Well , I thought I did.
They said send money. I didn't, and now I cannot access their site.
Seems if they were really serious about rights they would handle things differently.

Have a good 1
just

[coonhunter679]

Some sheriffs I think follow the intent of the law and use good discrestion. Other sheriffs let their political view, buddy system, or personal reason. This is a case of few bad apples are ruining it for the rest of them. I think group like Iowa Carry are trying make the changes the most effective way they can. I think we need something to change. If you try to get a permit in story county good luck. When I asked for an applacation this is what I got told. Basically, you aren't going to get one issued to you. I asked her I would like one anyway. She finely got me one. Sheriffs try to say they know their people better then some broad sweeping law. My question is: If I get denied in Story county. Then I move to the county next door (across the road)and get a permit. But I still work and do most of my travels in Story county. Does that make me any more safer or responsible? Or is it Story county has to honor it because the law spells that out? If the people want to keep the may carry law. It need to state you have the right to appeal their decision. If they want change it to a shall carry. I think you should have to take a training course. If you get charged with a certain class of crime your permit is void until the matter is taken care of.

[k9]

Good for you Centraliowa. Not only should that be the way it is, but voters should make it very clear to the candidates why they did not get the support.

All I hear about in these local races is the condition of the jail, Deputies leaving their cars idle on cold days, budgets etc.

There are more gun owners in each county than non gun owners.

Gun owners grumble among each other about the Sheriff but when it comes election time they nor Iowa Carry come out and make it a leading issue in the race.

If Iowa Carry does this in the next election cycle Sheriff's will take notice. Don't try to go around the Sheriff by appealing at the unelected State level. Either change the Sheriff's way of thinking or change the Sheriff.

Iowa Carry could target one Sheriff in an election year that does not issue permits, and make it a wedge issue with a good candidate on the other side and make a heck of a difference.

Get someone from that Sheriff's own party to challenge him in a primary, make him fight that battle and earn his office, then if the incumbent Sheriff wins the primary throw an opponent at him in the general from the other party. Keep coming at him with like minded people who believe in concealed carry, and keep bringing the issue up. If you do not unseat him you will wear him down. After one hard season of campaigning against him, if he wins promise him you will be back with more of the same in 4 years. Most of them will not want more of this. The Sheriff's own party will not like him being challenged in primary and may also put some pressure on him about permits.

Try that with one Sheriff in Iowa, and see the word spread to the other 98, and you will effect change.

[longpond]

Feb 10, 2010 15:38:33 GMT -6 justwannano said:

I joined Iowa Carry--Well , I thought I did.
They said send money. I didn't, and now I cannot access their site.
Seems if they were really serious about rights they would handle things differently.

Have a good 1
just

When you click on the Join Iowa Carry tab the first paragraph states ; For less than almost everyone spends on beer, soft drinks, or cigarettes every month, you can join Iowa Carry. $5 per month - or less! - will help Iowa Carry keep up the fight to defend the self-defense rights of every law abiding citizen in Iowa. Only way to join is you have to click on either of the two options lower down the page. If you weren't going to join then why click one of those then back out and gripe when things don't work? I have not joined either but go to the site and look at the info there. It is not a high pressure website. I started this topic to be informational and maybe get some different views about this legislation. I didn't start it so someone that got his wires crossed could bash this Organization or their website. Justwannano maybe you should E-mail them about fixing the problem. I'm not saing they are right on everything but I bet you will see they are serious about rights.

[justwannano]

Feb 10, 2010 17:20:44 GMT -6 longpond said:

Feb 10, 2010 15:38:33 GMT -6 justwannano said:

I joined Iowa Carry--Well , I thought I did.
They said send money. I didn't, and now I cannot access their site.
Seems if they were really serious about rights they would handle things differently.

Have a good 1
just

When you click on the Join Iowa Carry tab the first paragraph states ; For less than almost everyone spends on beer, soft drinks, or cigarettes every month, you can join Iowa Carry. $5 per month - or less! - will help Iowa Carry keep up the fight to defend the self-defense rights of every law abiding citizen in Iowa. Only way to join is you have to click on either of the two options lower down the page. If you weren't going to join then why click one of those then back out and gripe when things don't work? I have not joined either but go to the site and look at the info there. It is not a high pressure website. I started this topic to be informational and maybe get some different views about this legislation. I didn't start it so someone that got his wires crossed could bash this Organization or their website. Justwannano maybe you should E-mail them about fixing the problem. I'm not saing they are right on everything but I bet you will see they are serious about rights.

Q/I didn't start it so someone that got his wires crossed could bash this Organization or their website. /Q


I'm not being controversial here you are.
I'm just stating the facts.
No crossed wires on this end.

Have a good 1
just

[longpond]

LOL .... ok ............

[code]

I belong to the org. good bunch of fella's with their heads on straight and very well organized. They got their site up and running and VERY easy to contact your legislator. Click the site on Jeff's post, fill in a few lines and it re-fills them every time automatically and sends it to the people it needs sent to, very nice. No one person should be able to dictate the law to every one differently in the same state. A mental is going to carry a gun if he wants to, with or without a stupid piece of paper from their sherriff, just the law-abiders suffer, ALWAYS.

Cody

[k9]

So Cody why aren't they going after the Sheriffs that are not giving permits? Why go to the Legislature? The current majority is not really pro gun

[code]

Good Question, They are trying to set up county leaders, get the grass- roots thing going, but it is a terrible law and needs to be fixxed where it is broken. Reciprocity will be another good thing for this state. The bill made it through sub committee today with a vote of 17-4 and has alot of support in the house. They had 1033 letters sent to the senators today through their ICLAC site. We may not agree on the issue, but this is a good bill to get passed, and I still say gun laws are only for the law-abiding citizens.

Cody

[k9]

Cody we agree more than you think we do. I think all law abiding, non substance abusing, mentally capable Iowans should be able to carry CONCEALED after they have passed a course so they understand the responsibility.

The rub is, how do we sort out those who are unfit, and who is the best referee for that process. So far that had been at the County Sheriff level. The logic being the Sheriff knows his locals best so would sort out those who would be irresponsible.

If Sheriff's would just be the referee and issue permits we would not be having this conversation.

I agree with you that it is a stupid piece of paper, and I personally believe the piece of paper that contains the 2nd Amendment is far more important. However, Concealed Carry is just trying to shift who issues that stupid piece of paper to the State level. If that happened the "responsibility" would likely fall on a branch of the State law enforcement that YOU have no control over.

Your County Sheriff has to face up to you guys every four years. You can walk into his office and raise hell with him if you want. You can effect a direct impact on him on a regular basis. You can recruit candidates to oppose him.

Try that with the State Patrol or any other unelected law enforcement agency and see how far you get.

If Iowa Carry would take the money they are spending at the State level and target a couple County Sheriff's races they would open some of these Sheriff's eyes.

[k9]

Let me ask you guys this.

Have you ever met someone in your area who you know down in your heart should never be carrying a handgun? Someone who is a meth head? Mentally unstable? Hot tempered?

So what is the most effective way to first identify this person? Second what is the most effective way to keep him from wandering around armed with a handgun?

[k9]

Here are a few of Concealed Carries pet issues along with my take on the issues. Feel free to tell me what's wrong with my beliefs.

Shall issue- I agree with the shall issue cause if they take away the Sheriff's liability. Currently the Sheriff can and will get hammered if a permit holder does something stupid.

Appeals process- I disagree with this completely as it can be an opening for drug dealers and other people being investigated for ongoing crimes to get a "heads up" that they are the target of an investigation.

Reciprocity- I agree 100%

Standardized training- I agree 100%

Privacy of records- I don't mind permits being publicized at all. I carry a gun and I don't want criminals to forget it.

[k9]

Not to wear you fellas out but I just heard the guy from Iowa Concealed carry on the radio so I called him and asked him why they are not targeting county races. His answer was that they watched several races in the last cycle and determined that the voters did not care enough about the issue, as opposed to other Sheriff's Office issues.

There is a difference between watching a race and giving soft support to candidates supporting your cause and flat out showcasing an issue and making it a wedge issue between candidates.

I was disappointed in this guy's answer because I agree with many of his issues.

These guys are not talking about the MAJORITY of Sheriff's who issue permits freely and they apparently are unwilling to take the ones who do not on directly.

[Auctioneer]

K9,

I understand your points. Here are a few to consider.

1. The 2nd ammendment didn't "give us" the right to keep and bear arms. The framers of the Constitution saw it as one of those rights we already naturally have and the Constitution "Guarantees" it.

2. Requiring a permit, in my opinion, has not stopped not one "nut job" from carrying a concealed handgun. They'll do it regardless of the law. Training, classes & gov. regs are only followed by those of us who are NOT nut jobs. That little blue permit won't do a thing to keep someone who we think shouldn't be carrying to do so.

Respectfully,

ME

[k9]

Agreed 110%.

What concerns means is that the concealed carry group seems to concede that a permit is neccessary and are just changing how that process takes place.

If you want, I would be glad to just let all carry that want to who are not convicted felons, and beef up the crime for carrying while intoxicated or drugged, etc. In other words rather than making concealed carry illegal, make it illegal under certain circumstances.

If a permit is going to be required though, which is the case, the Sheriff is the best person to sort out who is who in his county. I guess my biggest beef with this is that they are ignoring the fact that a whole bunch of Iowa Sheriffs are doing this the right way, and lumping them in with the ones who refuse to issue permits.

So even those Sheriff's who agree with a lot of what concealed carry has to say, are forced to join the bad apples to defend the process which is in place. The guy on the radio told me that his group "watched" the Sheriff's race in Mahaska County and determined that the majority of voters just did not care about this issue.

Thats why this group needs to do more than watch and make it the issue. I promise you there are a ton of gun owners in Mahaska County.

I do not like unelected state offices handling this. Even the most anti government groups will recognize a county sheriff because he is elected .

[code]

You are right k9 we do agree alot. The only bad thing about the way it is, is 99 counties, 99 different "policies". There has to be consistency somewhere, so where do you start. I like the "Alaska Carry" alot like you say, carry unless you are a loser drugger, felon, but not everyone is jumping on board with that. The sub-committee pretty much let it die. In Madison county we had the same sherriff for must have been 30 some years. Paul was decent, but these farmers would vote for someone if you proved them to be muslim terrorist, hate america scumbags as long as they were on the democrat ticket, you could not vote them out here. Then what?

Cody

[k9]

So if the public doesn't care enough for this to be an issue we either need to motivate them or accept the fact that they just do not care.

We will have to agree to disagree. I do not want the State handling this issue at all. I'd rather deal with my elected county Sheriff than deal with some unelected State agency.

This is not going to get very far I predict in the State Legis. I do not see the Dems being a gun friendly group and they are calling the shots.

[roosterk0031]

The sherif doing it is OK, except there currently is no way to challenge his opinion. If he's non-issue that's it no go.

The sheriff is already off the hook for liability, it's been in there for a long time, they just continue to use that as as an excuse.

I'm ok with No permit required, but you need a premit for reprecosity, I'm not worried about the mentally incapable of being legally to carry, they'll carry illegaly so what's the difference, they won't ever be caught until they do something illegal either way. Once a felon, you should never be allowed to own/carry a firearm.

David

[k9]

I would be interested in how the Sheriff is off the hook for liability?

[roosterk0031]

Feb 13, 2010 20:48:25 GMT -6 k9 said:

I would be interested in how the Sheriff is off the hook for liability?[/quote

Well I must be mistaken, I used to be a member of IowaCarry, so I must have mixed up proposed legislation with actual code. I still think of it as an excuse made up by the Iowa Sherifs Group. Is the drivers ed instruction or DOT liable of every license they issue, and way more people are killed/injured with cars.

As soon as a CCW holder does something illegal then he's a criminal, permit doesn't matter.

[jaeger]

What if the sheriff has a drunk driving charge, should he make a decision for carrying a pistol. That's Keokuk county.

[meandean]

K9, I have a problem with permit holders being published. Reason being that criminals can use the list as the best chance at a good score on a breakin. That guy has a ccw permit he's got to have more guns around.

[k9]

True Dean. If the guy is looking for guns it ups his chances. I just like the arseholes knowing there are plenty of people packin out there so they better watch their step when they break into someones house.

I understand your logic Rooster but I can assure you if a Sheriff issues a permit to someone and that person does something extreme they will be vulnerable to lawsuits if the other side can prove they are too liberal with permit issuance. Most of these types of suits are filed in hopes that the county will quickly settle and some actually do. My County does not settle on frivolous suits which makes me happy.

That being said we in law enforcement are ALWAYS vulnerable to lawsuits and cannot walk around afraid of such things. But when a Sheriff signs that permit he is vouching for you and your stability.

I think it was in Iowa City years ago that Gang Lu shot up some people at the college. I remember the media was all over whether or not that guy had a permit as he had been denied (I believe a permit to purchase) by the Sheriff and had either tried to get one through the State or did get one through the State. Criminals will always get guns, but I do recall the media was doing their best to crawl up that Sheriff's rear end over the deal.

Jaeger I think Jeff got an OWI in a boat? I won't defend him but it happened before the election and he still got elected, so apparently a majority of Keokuk Co voters did not care. I don't know anything about that case but I heard from Keokuk Co friends of mine that it was a shady deal all around. I have not seen Jeff in years but knowing him I assume he took responsiblity for his actions.

[jaeger]

K-9 --All have treated me fair, just want people to know that the Sheriffs have flaws also and some of the flaws could be a good enough reason for another Sheriff to deny a permit.

[k9]

Yep all of us are flawed. In many counties the permits are not being denied because the gun owners are flawed, they are being denied because the Sheriff is flawed.

Concealed carry groups should showcase that.

Actually liability for the Sheriff is a good argument for these groups to use for a uniform policy statewide. If one Sheriff hand them out like greeting cards while others hand none out, the inconsistency will be brought home to the Sheriff who gives them freely, if he has a permit holder do stupid stuff.

My Sheriff gives them out pretty freely but he likes to meet the guys getting the permits. But when you get two idiots (brothers) like we did recently, who openly carry handguns on them in the Waterloo Hospital emergency room waiting area, their permit is gonna get revoked and never re issued. It's called "concealed" carry for a reason.

[yammerschooner]

Feb 10, 2010 20:30:02 GMT -6 k9 said:

So Cody why aren't they going after the Sheriffs that are not giving permits? Why go to the Legislature? The current majority is not really pro gun

This may be a little much for a first post, but I am going to have at it anyway.

First, for disclosure, you all should know that I am good friends with Michael, and know Steve through the organization. I also wrote last year's spring newsletter for the group. Suffice to say, this is a cause I am passionate about.

My question for those of you who are worried about meth-heads and such going around with guns is "Do you really think that not having a permit will keep a criminal from carrying around a weapon?" If I were going to take up being a criminal, I definitely would have skipped putting out $100 for training and licenses, and spent the day outside doing something other than sitting in a classroom.

If you agree that denying a permit often doesn't keep a bad from going armed, then why would you want to deny the honest, law-abiding person access to the same weapon?

The idea that a piece of paper or plastic keeps someone from acting on criminal tendencies is naive. To limit a law-abiding person from a lawful means to protect themselves from the person who doesn't care and has criminal intent is ludicrous.

Iowa Carry has attempted to influence Sheriff's offices in addition to state legislators. In all actuality, a lot of their influence with Sheriff offices comes from the fact that Sheriffs know that if they don't fix the system themselves, it will motivate the general population to get behind groups like Iowa Carry. One example of success at the county level can be found in Johnson county, where Sheriff Lonnie Pulkrabek has begun issuing permits (the prior Sheriff did not issue other than to a select few, and not uniformly).

In the end, what it comes down to for people like me is the following:
1. People should not be denied access to their rights simply because of the county they live in. Period.
2. All Iowans should have equal access under the law. Currently this is not happening.
3. There should not be 99 different issuance and training policies for a permit that is valid statewide.
4. People who have not shown themselves to be a danger should not be arbitrarily denied their rights.
5. People who are denied their rights should have the ability to appeal a Sheriff's decision.
6. The burden of proof should be geared towards why a person should be denied a permit, not why they should have access to one.
7. If a person is going to be denied the ability to acquire a permit, they should be able to find out why.
8. Currently, some Sheriff offices are set up so that permits are routinely denied at the front office, without even getting the benefit of Sheriff consideration. Michael, the gentleman who wrote the letter you posted, was denied by the front office staff for five years before he found the gumption and the means to get in touch directly with Jasper county's Sheriff Ballmer.

The reason Iowa Carry is going to the state legislature is because that is the only way to fix the problem on a state level. Fixes made at the county level can revert to the same problems that occurred in the past.

At the end of the day, gun rights are not at the top of the list of things people consider when reelecting a sheriff. Think about it, the last time you voted, how much did you know about those judges you voted for or against? As a Sheriff, if you don't step in a big, public, pile of poop, you stay in office. People think about the lack of chaos they have seen in the recent past and go with the recognized name of the incumbent.

The idea that a County Sheriff knows his constituents enough to be able to determine which ones are responsible is grossly overplayed by Sheriffs. For example, my father is very good friends with Sheriff Bill McCarthy, the current Polk county Sheriff. They worked closely together when McCarthy worked for the DMPD, and continue to get together after my father retired. That said, Sheriff McCarthy would not be able to pick me out of a lineup, and has as much clue to my character as those of you do who are currently reading this post.

At the end of the day, Sheriff reluctance to standardize the process comes down to power. No one likes to lose it. I imagine this is even more prominent of an attitude in law enforcement. (All of the LEO in my family - three immediate - concur with this opinion.)

I would also like to point out that there are Sheriff's who are County Coordinators for Iowa Carry, and there are Sheriff deputies on the board of directors for Iowa Carry. The ISSDA does not represent all Sheriff's offices.

In regard to political climate, I would like to point out that more attention has been generated by this issue than ever in the past. This year, HF2255 (Iowa Carry's bill) made it past the funnel. There are both Democrats and Republicans supporting this bill.

To address forum access at the Iowa Carry website, it has become more restrictive in the years I have been following/participating in the group. There are several areas that subscribing (as opposed to supporting) members are able to view, but in a read-only format. To be quite honest, I am a life supporting member there, but spend very little time reading the forums as I have little to contribute to the conversations I see on there. I have different watering holes.

What I believe it comes down to is that there is a single cause, with a variety of opinions about how to get there and a variety of tangential items. By narrowing down the accessible forums, Iowa Carry is able to better able to carry out its purpose with less fragmentation of membership caused by these tangential items. Its main purpose is to be a clearinghouse for information related to the cause and an organizing tool for those who would work against the current system. Keeping the off-topic banter to a minimum increases the potency of the tool, as it diminishes the opportunity for supporters to fragment based on tangential topics not related to the issue of carry.

In support of this opinion, I have seen several members to believed in the right to carry leave the site simply because they had exchanges over subjects not related to carry. One of those subjects that comes to mind was about whether someone should be able to shoot an unleashed dog that was disturbing a deer hunt on property the hunter had permission to hunt.

I think I have hit everything that was asked above, but let me know if there is any more information or opinion I can provide. As a first time poster at this site, I am not sure if I am automatically subscribed to this thread, but if anyone would like to discuss the organization I would be happy to either answer questions or give you to someone who will. Send me an email at my username here @yahoo.com, or even PM me for a phone number.