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Post by k9 on Jan 11, 2011 10:29:43 GMT -6
I know the second amendment does not stop at tavern doors. However can any of you seriously justify to me a guy sitting in a tavern drinking packing a firearm? Even in the most basic hunter safety course given to beginner hunters it is stated that alcohol and firearms do not mix.
There are some rogue Sheriff's who made this all happen. I consider them to be arrogant jerks for denying some of you permits, but there are only a few of them who made it bad for all.
The same will hold true for those carrying firearms under the new law. Some jerks out there are going to make it bad for the rest of you, and frankly many of them will be sitting in a bar.
So proponents of this agree that mentally unstable people and substance abusers should be denied permits but we allow drinking abd packing heat? Iowans cannot be trusted with a cigarette in a bar, but hey load up your 45 and lets go down a few.
Sorry fellas, this has gone too far.
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Post by justwannano on Jan 11, 2011 10:47:45 GMT -6
Yeah we knew this stuff would happen. There are just some people who will take the right to the limits because thats just the way they are. Generally a a pain in the ass.
As a one time bartender/manager I have seen guys (lets not forget the gals) that were not mentally stable enough to make good decisions. Heck I've seen that in folks that have not been drinking also. But 99.9 % of the folks I ever served would never have been a problem.
At 1 of the bars we catered to college age students. You'd be surprised how many times I have told them that they were wrong. I do not have to serve them just because they turned 21.
Give the bar owners ,managers and bartenders the legal right to ban customers carrying from the property and you will have reduced the problem.
Just
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Post by muskrat72 on Jan 11, 2011 10:49:51 GMT -6
You can carry in a bar??? Wtf.
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Post by ~ADC~ on Jan 11, 2011 10:55:08 GMT -6
I don't think it will be much of a problem myself. The potential is there but stupidity is more of a concern than having a beer in the bar with your gun. IMO. I mean, don't think its a good idea to drink while you carry but until you exceed .08 you won't be any more impaired than some folks I see stone cold sober (go to walMart this Saturday afternoon). You'll likely lose your CCW forever too if you get caught with it over .08! Plus the big ass fines will put money in someones pocket... imagine that. ~ADC~
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Post by x-demoman on Jan 11, 2011 11:52:55 GMT -6
Well put Bruce. That is the way is always is a few screw it up for everyone. Now a few will be given the oppertunity to really screw it up.
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Post by roosterk0031 on Jan 11, 2011 13:07:12 GMT -6
I don't see it going to be a problem. Once past 0.08 permit or not your illegal. Way simplier than the Applebees laws that other states tried.
I'm pretty sure bar owners or any property owners can ban anyone from carrying of on their property. In most states though if caught carrying were banned by owner aslong as you leave when asked no charges can be filed. If you refuse trespass is all you are charged with.
Let's not forget that Permit holders are proven over and over again to be the most law abiding people in the country, IIRC one study showed even more law abiding than police but can't find the link.
Also remember Iowa's the 30+ state to change to this type of law, it's hasn't been a problem anywhere else are we that much more uncivilized.
David
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Post by furman on Jan 11, 2011 15:55:50 GMT -6
I don't see it going to be a problem. Once past 0.08 permit or not your illegal. Way simplier than the Applebees laws that other states tried. I'm pretty sure bar owners or any property owners can ban anyone from carrying of on their property. In most states though if caught carrying were banned by owner aslong as you leave when asked no charges can be filed. If you refuse trespass is all you are charged with. Let's not forget that Permit holders are proven over and over again to be the most law abiding people in the country, IIRC one study showed even more law abiding than police but can't find the link. Also remember Iowa's the 30+ state to change to this type of law, it's hasn't been a problem anywhere else are we that much more uncivilized. David I agree 100 %
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plumber
Active Trap Talker
Posts: 65
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Post by plumber on Jan 11, 2011 15:56:24 GMT -6
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Post by k9 on Jan 11, 2011 17:15:19 GMT -6
If there is a problem in a bar, there are so many unintended targets.
I have also been a bartender and bouncer, and frankly I feel any responsible gun owner would not drink and carry. The two flat out do not mix. To me you are either doing one or the other.
Businesses can post no firearms at thier doors, and there are already advocates on the other side of the issue urging people to test the limits at those businesses.
So how is walking into a bank with a handgun in plain view for all to see not like shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theater?
I just wish the law would require people to carry concealed. In the days that the second amendment was written we were in different times with fewer public situations loaded with unintended targets. Carry concealed and know how to use your weapon accurately should be the standard, but thats not how it will be.
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Post by k9 on Jan 11, 2011 17:19:15 GMT -6
So how many of you believe that drinking alcohol and hunting is a responsible thing to do? Just curious.
How many of you think it is irresponsible?
Mark me down as irresponsible. If you hunt with me we have a beer after the hunt. Pull out a beer during the hunt and you and I are no longer hunting together.
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Post by furman on Jan 11, 2011 17:24:56 GMT -6
do you feel that Permit holders will be a big problem for enforcement now with the new laws ?
They won't......
Law enforcement needs to worry about making our highways safer and catching child abusers and meth heads ...
The new laws could even save lives.....i might be eating a burger and drinking a glass of wine when a pissed off husband coming in the bar to kill his wife and i take him out before it happens
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Post by iayogi17 on Jan 11, 2011 18:29:15 GMT -6
one way I see it is that we the people could have guns before the law change and you didn't know who had a gun with them or not before, now with the new law it just makes them legal to have a gun with them. I'll be shocked if there's a wild west shot out somewhere Yes drinking and hunting is a bad idea drinking and trapping just gets your finger in a trap more
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Post by amestrapper on Jan 11, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -6
The problem with requiring concealed carry is that if somebody catches a glimpse of your firearm or a print of the firearm the sheriffs could revoke your permit. I think people should try to conceal it but not have to worry too much. As for carrying in a bar...if its concealed nobody will know unless they need to know and when you get a permit you are accepting the responsibility of using it wisely. Business owners can post signs but they cannot call the police on you if you are asked to leave and you refuse. Then its only a trespassing charge. Bottom line, if you dont like it you A-Dont go to the bars. Or B-Move to Illinois.
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Post by k9 on Jan 11, 2011 20:33:24 GMT -6
I will have to go to bars and Illinois is too liberal for me. Guess Im stuck in Iowa.
I'm not saying we will have wild west shoot outs, I am saying there is a respectful way to do things. Almost all who carry will be decent about it. For those who do not if I do not have a reason to arrest them I fully intend to tell them how stupid I think they are. Unprofessional? Yep. As a gun owner I think anyone who carries openly into a bank is stupid and I plan to make that clear to them. I think anyone who drinks and packs a gun is also very irresponsible if not stupid. I know they won't care, but it will make me feel better.
I think most responsible gun owners would agree.
I know two brothers who got thier permits revoked by my Sheriff for openly carrying in the Waterloo emergency room. These guys wanted the world to know that they have a gun.
I just can't justify that mindset, the world should not know you have a gun until you need it. That is respectful and also tactically sound logic.
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Post by k9 on Jan 11, 2011 20:40:35 GMT -6
furman I do not think the great majority of permit holders will be a problem, in fact I feel bad for them that a few Sheriff's have trampled on thier rights in the past.
The extreme attitudes of those Sheriff's have been ridiculous and I think frankly those Sheriff's are complete jerks.
On the flip side, extreme attitudes displayed by a few problem permit holders will also be ridiculous and those guys are also complete jerks.
Ames I do not understand your point that businesses cannot call the police on you if you refuse to leave.? They certainly can and yes the trespass charge will apply.
The best things you guys who are hardcore determined to force businesses to accept open carry in thier place can do is take your business elsewhere when you see signs posted.
So who here thinks it is wise to carry openly in a bank?
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Post by ~ADC~ on Jan 11, 2011 20:57:32 GMT -6
So who here thinks it is wise to carry openly in a bank? I don't think it is wise but if it peeked out of my pocket on accident, I'd hate to get into trouble for it. ~ADC~
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Post by furman on Jan 12, 2011 3:29:50 GMT -6
your dwelling on the few K9 not the majority
There will dumbasses in all things in life...on both sides of the law
Will the new laws create all sorts of troubles for law enforcement.....no
I bet theres 1000 times more calls to 911 for someone getting hurt shoveling there side walk than a report about someone carrying a gun
As i said before....law enforcement has bigger things to worry about
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STANLEY
Active Trap Talker
Posts: 87
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Post by STANLEY on Jan 12, 2011 6:37:31 GMT -6
There must be difference's in the ,"CPL-CCW" between MI & IA. I got my notes, books and paper work out too check.
PISTOL FREE ZONES----in Michigan
Schools or Property K-12 Day Care Center Sports Arena Bar & Tavern Any Property owned by a Church Hospital 2500 people- in seating Casino
So from what I read on here, I gather, that there are no,"Pistol Free Zones" in Iowa?
I for one, would not want too be carrying a Pistol at any of the above places. Now a pocket knife, hard to leave home with out it.
STANLEY
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Post by k9 on Jan 12, 2011 8:14:34 GMT -6
Schools and some Government buildings are gun free Stanley.
Don't get me wrong fellas, I am all for concealed carry. Emphasis on "concealed". I understand the concern that people can accidentally see a concealed gun. As a responding officer I would be reasonable about such a thing, and I understand that all would not.
I can think of two guys in this county who got thier permits revoked because they wanted the whole world to know that they were packing guns at all times. I can promise you that they cannot wait to start packing again in a highly visible way now that the Sheriff can't control them.
I tend to doubt the maturity level or sense of responsibility being displayed by such fellows. If they cannot handle the actual carrying of a handgun in a reasonable and responsible way, I can only assume all other decisons that they make involving those guns will be as bad if not worse.
Two fellas like that reflect badly on ALL gun owners and we should call them out on it every time we see it.
Just because something is legal, does not always make it right. I do not need a law to tell me what is right and wrong.
It is good that they have smacked down some of these Iowa Sheriff's who would not allow permits. But they have gone too far I fear.
Still waiting for some of you to tell me why it is smart to carry openly in banks, and why it is smart to combine guns and drinking alcohol.
Tactically it is stupid.
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Post by justwannano on Jan 12, 2011 8:34:27 GMT -6
Doesn't the law carry openly in all those places? Even if there isn't a problem there. Yeah but thats different?? just
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Post by k9 on Jan 12, 2011 8:58:21 GMT -6
Not sure what you are asking Just
You can carry openly now in many public places, but banks and bars have always been considered tabboo. I have been talking with some and listening to even more people and I gather that given the publicity surrounding this new law there is a great increase in interest in carrying guns. I think that is great in most cases.
That being said I have talked with a few who have taken the class and I am disappointed in the lack of emphasis in SOME, not all, of the classes on the importance of carrying concealed.
I am also disapponted in the lack of training on hands on weapons use so we know that they can hit what they are shooting at. I know that the second amendment does not cover that, but darn it society has changed since that was written and there are a lot of innocent targets around when one draws a gun in society today.
The two guys I am thinking about were unwilling to carry openly when the Sheriff took away thier permits. They are now as of the other day going to get permits again. For whatever reason, such fellows feel empowered by the permit to pack openly no matter what the law allows them to do in public.
The alcohol thing is personal to me, and just sits crossways with everything I have ever learned about handling guns. You treat every gun as if it is loaded, you never point a gun at anyone unless you intend to use it, and you never drink and handle firearms. That has been drilled into me from day one, and I just cannot fathom why anyone would want to be drinking and packing. I am talking in a bar, not a restaraunt so lets not throw the steakhouse scenario at me.
So a cigarette is too dangerous to be in a bar but a firearm is not?
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Post by furman on Jan 12, 2011 9:01:45 GMT -6
Sounds like you have a bone to pick with some one.....
Let us know when the crap hits the fan with the new laws and the troubles start with guys getting drunk and pulling there guns in bars and banks are too scared to let people in because there carrying.....
I talk with the law around here and there nothing going on here.....
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Post by furman on Jan 12, 2011 11:03:08 GMT -6
some folks think owning a gun is way beyond stupid
some folks think trapping is way beyond stupid
I'm glad i live in a country that give rights to the people....everyone whats to keep people in line with laws and all it does is take rights away from good people
I have business dealing with people in Europe and they talk about the laws they have to live by.....they can't take a crap with out someone telling tell how to do it
I'm more worried about getting struck by lighting than getting shot by some one with a gun in a bar
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Post by justwannano on Jan 12, 2011 12:27:24 GMT -6
Not sure what you are asking Just ... The difference is in what you are doing in there. A banker friend of mine said he was thinking of getting his permit. Should he be permitted to carry in the bank? BTW that bank was robbed twice a few months ago. just
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Post by justwannano on Jan 12, 2011 12:30:00 GMT -6
Ok its legal to set baited 220s in a public park you know folks let their dogs run loose while walking in the area. Now what does common sense say to do I realize common sense isn't common anymore but come on ! It only takes ONE time with a dog and a baited 220 or one drunk and a .45 to change things guys. Q/... It only takes ONE time with a dog and a baited 220 or one drunk and a .45 to change things guys. /Q Not really. It takes the press to sensationalize it out of proportion. just
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Post by furman on Jan 12, 2011 12:35:02 GMT -6
I'm not going to debate any more....because it's not worth it to me
It's law now ....if you want it changed then you better go to your rep and get it changed.....it's a big pile of tough crap for the guys that don't like it
your opinion isn't going to change anything here....
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grandpa
Hyper-Active Trap Talker
If you ain't the lead dog the scenery never changes
Posts: 177
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Post by grandpa on Jan 12, 2011 12:42:03 GMT -6
I went to the Sherrifs office yesterday to make sure I understood the current cc law. Found out since I had taken instructions in 88 and renewed 12-10-2010- I couldn't have an uncased long gun in my pickup unless--- well you know the law, so I could and did renew for five years. (hope I get my monies worth, at my age I don't even buy green bananas ) !
Main thing I wanted to; and did gain was to be able have someone to take me to point A, load my gun, leave my case behind and walk to point B, unload my gun and get in a vehicle and not have to worry about not having my gun case and have to disasemble my gun with cold fingers and drop some part in the snow. We are talking a long gun here.
For me it was as simple as that.
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Post by k9 on Jan 12, 2011 13:40:04 GMT -6
I am not out to change anyones minds. We trappers are too stubborn for that.
So.....no one thinks it is smart or reasonable to carry a gun openly into a bank?
No one apparently thinks it is smart or reasonable to drink and handle guns?
I do have a bone to pick, not as a cop, but as a gun owner. When we see the few idiots, doing stupid stuff that will reflect badly on all the rest of us we should call them on it. Drinking and packing is stupid. Packing openly for all to see to somehow prove you are a man is stupid.
I do not want to go back to Sheriff's denying anyone permits, so I not wanting to roll back this law, I just think it goes a bit too far.
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Post by justwannano on Jan 12, 2011 14:34:58 GMT -6
Not really. It takes the press to sensationalize it out of proportion. just And the result would be the same Just - rights lost ... You can say that about anything. Not just gun rights. You'd have to be a lawyer to be certain you were in the right to use your gun anyplace. And if you were found wrong by an anti jury? lost rights. There seems to be a unbalance in this country in what the press can do. Apparently anything it wants without recourse. Yell fire in a crowded building and you go to jail but if the press sensationalizes anything way out of proportion its OK weather it hurts people or not. just
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Post by roosterk0031 on Jan 12, 2011 15:18:22 GMT -6
Can't argue with any of that.
See stupid people doing stupid stuff daily, if I tried try to straighten them out, they wouldn't listen/learn anyway & I'd probably end up myself shot.
Any group of people will always have a % of idiots, some groups a larger % then others. Read thru here, maybe none of them post, but plenty of post about them.
I still don't understand why they brought long guns into weapon permit issue. I wonder what % of new permit holders that's the only reason they are getting one. Convenience or so can road hunt loaded and uncased and not worry about getting stopped.
I'd do the same as Grandpa if I hunted in partys anymore, and be even lazier, I'd just clear the chamber and call it good, don't even need a case.
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